"Going Cheney on Climate"

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN Published: December 8, 2009 (c)2009 New York Times

In 2006, Ron Suskind published =93The One Percent Doctrine,=94 a book about the U.S. war on terrorists after 9/11. The title was drawn from an assessment by then-Vice President Dick Cheney, who, in the face of concerns that a Pakistani scientist was offering nuclear-weapons expertise to Al Qaeda, reportedly declared: =93If there=92s a 1% chance that Pakistani scientists are helping Al Qaeda build or develop a nuclear weapon, we have to treat it as a certainty in terms of our response.=94 Cheney contended that the U.S. had to confront a very new type of threat: a =93low-probability, high-impact event.=94

Soon after Suskind=92s book came out, the legal scholar Cass Sunstein, who then was at the University of Chicago, pointed out that Mr. Cheney seemed to be endorsing the same =93precautionary principle=94 that also animated environmentalists. Sunstein wrote in his blog: =93According to the Precautionary Principle, it is appropriate to respond aggressively to low-probability, high-impact events =97 such as climate change. Indeed, another vice president =97 Al Gore =97 can be understood to be arguing for a precautionary principle for climate change (though he believes that the chance of disaster is well over 1 percent).=94

Of course, Mr. Cheney would never accept that analogy. Indeed, many of the same people who defend Mr. Cheney=92s One Percent Doctrine on nukes tell us not to worry at all about catastrophic global warming, where the odds are, in fact, a lot higher than 1 percent, if we stick to business as usual. That is unfortunate, because Cheney=92s instinct is precisely the right framework with which to think about the climate issue =97 and this whole =93climategate=94 controversy as well.

=93Climategate=94 was triggered on Nov. 17 when an unidentified person hacked into the e-mails and data files of the University of East Anglia=92s Climatic Research Unit, one of the leading climate science centers in the world =97 and then posted them on the Internet. In a few instances, they revealed some leading climatologists seemingly massaging data to show more global warming and excluding contradictory research.

Frankly, I found it very disappointing to read a leading climate scientist writing that he used a =93trick=94 to =93hide=94 a putative decli= ne in temperatures or was keeping contradictory research from getting a proper hearing. Yes, the climate-denier community, funded by big oil, has published all sorts of bogus science for years =97 and the world never made a fuss. That, though, is no excuse for serious climatologists not adhering to the highest scientific standards at all times.

That said, be serious: The evidence that our planet, since the Industrial Revolution, has been on a broad warming trend outside the normal variation patterns =97 with periodic micro-cooling phases =97 has been documented by a variety of independent research centers.

As this paper just reported: =93Despite recent fluctuations in global temperature year to year, which fueled claims of global cooling, a sustained global warming trend shows no signs of ending, according to new analysis by the World Meteorological Organization made public on Tuesday. The decade of the 2000s is very likely the warmest decade in the modern record.=94

This is not complicated. We know that our planet is enveloped in a blanket of greenhouse gases that keep the Earth at a comfortable temperature. As we pump more carbon-dioxide and other greenhouse gases into that blanket from cars, buildings, agriculture, forests and industry, more heat gets trapped.

What we don=92t know, because the climate system is so complex, is what other factors might over time compensate for that man-driven warming, or how rapidly temperatures might rise, melt more ice and raise sea levels. It=92s all a game of odds. We=92ve never been here before. We just know two things: one, the CO2 we put into the atmosphere stays there for many years, so it is =93irreversible=94 in real-time (barring some feat of geo-engineering); and two, that CO2 buildup has the potential to unleash =93catastrophic=94 warming.

When I see a problem that has even a 1 percent probability of occurring and is =93irreversible=94 and potentially =93catastrophic,=94 I b= uy insurance. That is what taking climate change seriously is all about.

If we prepare for climate change by building a clean-power economy, but climate change turns out to be a hoax, what would be the result? Well, during a transition period, we would have higher energy prices. But gradually we would be driving battery-powered electric cars and powering more and more of our homes and factories with wind, solar, nuclear and second-generation biofuels. We would be much less dependent on oil dictators who have drawn a bull=92s-eye on our backs; our trade deficit would improve; the dollar would strengthen; and the air we breathe would be cleaner. In short, as a country, we would be stronger, more innovative and more energy independent.

But if we don=92t prepare, and climate change turns out to be real, life on this planet could become a living hell. And that=92s why I=92m for doing the Cheney-thing on climate =97 preparing for 1 percent.

Reply to
J.A. Legris
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On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:12:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened "J.A. Legris" wrote in :

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Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Do you even ask how much that insurance is going to cost?

Would you pay $15,000 a year for personal meteor-impact insurance?

What if a new ice age has a 1% probability (which it surely does) and extra CO2 will prevent it?

Stop panicking and start making sense.

No, just a little warmer. One UN bigwig the other day said we are facing the total extinction of the human species from CO2 release. What a jerk.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

It's nothing to do with environment, humanity, or planet-saving. They just want money. That's it. Bottom line.

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-- Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

[...]

No, he can be right: When one of those grandiose underground CO2 sequestration reservoirs springs a sudden leak that will extinguish at least the locals there. Most likely all of them. Luckily I don't live there.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

Will somebody _please_ tell me how/where I can pick up my share of this alleged funding?

And "big oil" has been promoting windmills and solar panels - that doesn't sound very "bogus" to me.

But, as always, faith is impervious to facts.

Thanks, Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

Apparently he hasn't been anywhere near US this year. It's so nasty cold here recently that people are wishing that the globe really _was_ warming. >:->

"shows no signs of ending", so they extrapolate to infinity, like this:

  1. Start with a data set:
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  2. Cherry-pick a set that suits your purposes:
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  3. And extrapolate:
    formatting link

Thanks, Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

Why "surely"?

It was very unkind of him to remind you that this is a serious issue. For the current global warming to run away to a global extinction would require a massive release of carbon dioxide.and methane as in the Permian-Triassic extinction event - the worst so far. That seems to have been initiated by the Siberian Traps erupting through coal fields, which seesm to have been roughly as effective as modern industrial civilisation at getting fossil carbon out of the ground and into the atmosphere, if rather slower

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Since the earth has recently been in a few degress warmer than it is at the moment - at the peaks of previous interglacials - we've probably got to wait a century or two before we could reasonably feel ourselves to be at risk of such an extinction event. but you do have to keep in mind that we aren't yet seeing the full benefit of the carbon dioxide we've already dumped into the atmosphere; the ocean is warming up more slowly than the land, and it is still soaking up 30% of our carbon dioxide emissions. Once it gets properly warmed up, we will get that 30% back with interest.

If we keep on churning out CO2 at the present rate we could start seeing the early signs of an incipient extinction event and not be in a position to change our ways fast enough to save our bacon.

This isn't the kind of process that the IPCC can model with any confidence, so they don't talk about it, which - unfortuately - doesn't mean that the risk is non-existent.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

re.

The underground CO2 storage will probably come, this iis the scheme: The oily companies want more oil out of the exhausted fields, so they want to pump CO2 into those.

1) you pay for the oil. 2) you pay for the CO2 pumping via environment tax. So now you pay for the oil twice. Then if it goes wrong you pay with your life.

So you pay 2 or 3x , clever !

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

[snip]

But 'climate change' isn't an event in the sense that a nuclear weapon detonating is.

Even if you accept the premise that increased CO2 will inevitably lead to higher global temperatures, those increases aren't singular step like events. Its a slow, continuous process.

[snip]

Or not. The warmingists seem to flip-flop on the CO2 cycle as it suits them. If they are arguing about warming, the stuff hangs around. If the crisis is carbonic acid and its effects on sea life, then the stuff seems to drop right out of the air.

The truth is that these people don't seem to have a clue. The fact that the seasonal variations in CO2 concentration are easily observable (caused by a difference in northern/southern hemisphere rates of plant respiration) seems to indicate that plants will take it up rather rapidly.

The same thing as the spotted owl fiasco. Long after the fallacy of the link between old growth forests and spotted owl populations was exposed, the court ordered restrictions on logging remain in place. The damage is done and its an irreversible event (same as terrorists getting hold of nukes).

Nope. The day after the hoax is revealed, I'm taking my Chevy out of storage and firing up that 454.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a man who entered a local paper\'s pun contest. He sent in ten
different puns, in the hope that at least one of them would win.
Unfortunately, no pun in ten did.
Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Not exactly. Saving the planet costs money, and the poor countries haven't got a lot of money to start with, and don't want to put a crimp in their economic development by opting for more expensive sustainable energy sources, rather than getting their industries going by burning coal just as all the developed countries did, back when we didn't know any better.

From the point of view of the developed world, is cost-effective to subsidise sustainable energy sources in developing countries - they'd be buying a reduction of CO2 emissions by installing new hardware, which tends to be cheaper than getting the same effect by clean up existing hardware.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

fe

re.

"Springs a sudden leak"? The natural gas field under Barendrecht in the Netherlands is 1.8km underground, underneath an impervious layer that kept natural gas in there for a few hundred million years.

The same pipe that is to be used to put the CO2 in was previously used to get the natural gas out, and it is strange that the inhabitants of Barendrecht are worried about the CO2 coming back up the pipe while they never seemed to worry about the possibility that the natural gas that used to come up the pipe might have gotten lose.

Admittedly, natural gas is lighter than air, but if enough of that had got out to match the volume of carbon dioxide required to "extingusih the inhabitants" it would have formed a fuel-air mixture good for a megaton or so of explosive force, if someone had struck at match in the wrong place at the wrong time.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

here.

But then again, if the natural gas coming out of the field under Barendrecht had gotten loose in the improbable way that you and Jeorg are hypothesising, it would have created a potential fuel-air-bomb that could have wiped Barendrecht off the face of the earth.

Nobody ever seems to have worried about that, so presumably we are seeing a spot of denialist propaganda at work rather than any kind of realistic anxiety.

And Jan seems to have forgotten an extra environmental tax which is peculiar to the Netherlands. Every bit of CO2 we burn wins us a bit more global warming, and every bit of global warming wins us a bt more sea-level rise, and every bit of sea-level rise means that the Dutch sea defences have to be that bit higher - and a bit wider - and Jan and I are getting taxed to pay for that work as well.

The sea defence costs go up as x^2, which is even cleverer.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

Well, and it does happen. I was on an oil rig when the gas leak siren began to blare. That is not a cool place to be when that happens. Big difference: It's constantly watched, checked, certified, re-checked, checked again. With CO2 storage it's anyone's guess whether that will be the case over the long run.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

Don't be silly. We know that 30% of the Co2 we emit ends up in the oceans, 50% in the atmosphere and 20% in biological sinks. We've known it for quite some time - there's been no flip-flop. You may think that you are hearing different messages from people talking about different aspects of the problem, but the problem is in your perception .

The plants take it up in the growing season and dump it again in the fall. They do take up some of the CO2 that we are generating by burning fossil carbon, but only about 20%.

This process has happened repeatedly over the last couple of million years as the climate cycled between ice ages and interglacials - as the climate warmed up from an ice age to an interglacial, loads of CO2 would come out of solution in the oceans and most of it would end up in the atmosphere.

Presumably a lot of the CO2 that came out of solution would get taken up by the new forests that grew where the Northern Hemisphere ice sheets used to be, but there still seemed to be plenty left for the atmosphere.

High levels of CO2 in the atmosphere seem to be eventually absorbed by olivine and other minerals and transformed into carbonate rock, or so the geologists tell us. It is a slow process - hundreds of thosuands of years - but there's geoloogical data that can let you see how it worked.

Exxon-Mobil-funded denialist propaganda is the only place you will find any global warming hoax, and their hoax is to claim that there is any doubt about the reality of anthropogenic global warming. You've just demonstrated that you haven't a clue about the subject, which does tend to suggest that you have being getting your ideas from a denialist web-site, either directly or a second-hand via a gullible (or lazy) journalist.

-- Bill Sloman, Nimegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

So removing the plants in the fall (by harvesting them) would seem to be better than leaving them to release it. But the warminists claim that table forests like old growth forests are great carbon sinks. In reality, no natural forests are. Except for peat bogs, over the long term, wild plants are carbon neutral. Or forests that are 10K years old would have sequestered far more carbon than 500 year old forests. So, where is it?

On the other hand, if we haul logs out of the forest, or crops out of farm land, we can directly measure the carbon removed from the environment. So a palm oil plantation, even for eventual use as diesel fuel is, at worst, carbon neutral. Its far better then a jungle if we have to pump crude oil out of the ground.

Now, try running this logic by the warmingists and watch them scream. And change the models.

That's too slow. The effects that we can see in seasonal variations suggest that warming in the northern hemisphere will extend growing seasons and this will absorb CO2 quite rapidly. The seasonal decline in atmospheric CO2 concentration is quite visible. Its a powerful negative feedback input.

So what we need to do is to put the newly productive land to use producing crops that can offset crude oil.

But run that by the warmingists and they'll be all upset about the possibility of our bothering a moose.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
This isn\'t right.  This isn\'t even wrong. -- Wolfgang Pauli
Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

[snip]

You should have hung onto Manhattan.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask not for whom the  tolls.
Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

I would imagine that the thermal capacity of the earth is rather singular and stable. One would expect that any slight perturbation of the temperature of the earth would simply result in some type of anti-reaction by the earth to counteract such things.

We see this in almost all natural phenomena. If such a phenomena were not stable then it would run away. If earth's thermal regulation was not stable then it wouldn't matter but humans did. If it is stable then I doubt humans could do much to change it. (It then is very arrogant to think that humans can compute with the astronomical scales that exist on planetary levels)

For example. Suppose CO2 is a greenhouse gas(ignoring the fact that plant life needs CO2 to exist and humans expire CO2). Suppose humans pump a significant amount of CO2 in the air to raise temperatures significantly. The Earth Heats up. This causes the atmosphere to become either more dense. The sun's rays then are reflected more which reduces the thermal energy entering the atmosphere and causes the earth to cool.

Without such a "negative feedback" The thermal temperature would surely run away and do it regardless of human cause. Humans can, of course, help it along.

The biggest problem I see is those that claim that the emails prove nothing. That there are other independent observers and thousands of scientists that prove MMGW is true. First, if MMGW is true and the data scientifically supports it then why did those "scientists" have to lie in the first place? Second, most scientists that agree that are not intimately involved in it are simply referencing the "scientific literature" which we now know was partly rigged. This not only hurts their cause but could potentially reverse any real knowledge about GW. If we can't trust the scientists who can we trust?

Does it seems like all the con men have gather in Copenhagen for one final push before they move onto something next?

Reply to
Jon Slaughter

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It's doubtful if our agricultural activities will make any significant difference. Deciduous trees grow leaves in spring and shed them in autumn, and there are a lot of them around.

At the moment the boreal forests are great carbon sinks. The combination of the current warming - which gets more intense as you get closer to the poles - and the extra CO2 in the atmosphere mean that these forests are growing taller and thicker and expanding to colonise areas that were previosuly too cold.

Actually, they do. Long established forests have richer eco-systems, with plants filling every possible ecological niche. Every extra plant is a bit more carbon taken out of the atmosphere.

Except that a palm oil plantation sequesters a lot less carbon that the rciher jungle eco-system that it replaced.

In fact they'd just point you to the existing models and tick you off for advancing a hypothesis without first testing it against known facts.

al

But the amount of carbon that gets taken up is restricted by the land area available for the plants to grow on. Plants depend on sunlight, so the depth of plant growth is finite - tree can only get so high before they get blown over.

As I mentioned in my previous post, this mechanism would have been working during the last few interglacials, where the temperature peaked some three degrees higher than it is at the moment, while the CO2 record shows the CO2 level following the global temperature, as the warming of the oceans drove more CO2 out of solution.

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Actually, they will point out to you that we need all the farmland that we can get to grow enough food to feed the world - there isn't anything like enough left over to feed our cars and trucks as well. As a mechanism for harvesting solar energy, plants are useless. Solar panels and solar power plants are much more efficient, though we'd need better batteries to take full advantage of this.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

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In fact Eath's thermal regulation is stable, but there are positive feedbacks. The postive feedback gain isn't high enough to make the system run away. but it is enough to amplify relatively small forcings.

The Milankovitch effect, which seems to have been driving the alternation between ice ages and interglacials for the past few million years

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doesn't generate anything like enough forcing to have produced the recorded temperature changes directly, but the known positve feedbacks

- CO2 moving into and out of the oceans as they cool off and warm up respectively, and the changing albedo of the Norther Hemisphere as the ice sheets advance and retreat - together explain the observed variation.

ense.

The density of the atmosphere has no effect on the amount of solar radiation absorbed by the earth as a whole.

un

Wrong. Check out

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for a detailed discussion of the physics of global warming.

ng.

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They didn't lie. The Climategate e-mails talk about "tricks" with data

- meaning ways of presenting the data in ways that make it easier to understand - and the usual denialist propaganda merchants try to present this as if it were a discussions of ways to distort the data. It is the denialists who are doing the lying.

We don't know anything of the sort. We do know that the denialist commentators would like you to think this, and they do their best - by slective quotation from e-mails presented out of context - mislead unsophisticated readers.

Cetainly not the denialist propaganda machine.

l

Actually, the denialist propaganda machine is running flat out to try and derail Copenhagen - why do you think that Climategate happened when it did - and there are a lot of con men out there trying to damage public confidence in science at a time when we really do need to act on the scinece and get on and do something to slow down anthropogenic global warming.

The coal and oil industries are dead scared that Copenhagen will set such a plan in motion, which would mean that there shortly wouldn't be anything like as much money to be made out of digging up fossil carbon and selling it as fuel. They are spending a mint in the hope they they will be able to keep their turn-over high for another few years.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

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