EV charging on GFCI

For many years UL standards have require detection of a N-G short/connection downstream. Detection does not require load current flow (voltage drop). GFCIs have the 2 current transformers (page 6) right together. The second CT tries to create a common-mode current downstream in both H and N. If there is a N-G short that produces a current that the other CT detects. If wired H-N reversed it still works.

GFCIs trip at 4-6 mA. AFCIs also have ground fault protection. Probably required at 50 mA or less, and commonly provided at 30 mA.

These days most house circuits have to be AFCI or GFCI protected (sometimes both).

Perhaps. But I don't know if all GFCI's have it - there may have been UL listed GFCI's available years ago, prior to the requirement of detecting a N-G short with no load current. GFCIs were first required by the NEC in 1971 - UL 943 is dated 2006; there may have been some earlier applicable UL standard, but I don't know.

And UL 943 allows GFI without the G-N no load short detection as follows: "5.11.2 A portable ground-fault circuit-interrupter that is not provided with an equipment ground shall not be provided with a receptacle or cord connector of the grounding type, but shall be provided with a polarized receptacle or cord connector"

Such a portable GFCI might be involved in the EV charging situation they are discussing - I don't know.

Yes. And that may have been what one poster had in mind when he talked about circuit bias. I don't know and I didn't want to speculate about that disagreement. However, the detection with no load current flow is a SHORT circuit of roughly 2(?) ohms (or less). It won't detect leakage current G-N where the word leakage indicates a higher resistance. For that detection - say for example 100 ohms - there must be a load current.

Ed

I wrote "also have GROUND FAULT PROTECTION", not "GFCI." And 30-50 mA, not 5 mA. AFCIs for many years have had ground fault protection.

Example of why - UL did tests of "glowing connections" on grounded receptacles for a major manufacturer. You get a "glowing connection" when there is a loose connection of H or N at the device and there is significant current. The contact resistance produces heat and the connection may get hot enough to "glow". This is not an arc, and an AFCI will not detect it as an arc. UL found that in the heat damage to the receptacle, for a significant percentage of cases a leakage path to ground was created and an AFCI tripped on ground fault.

So we can talk about NEC requirements or can't talk about requirements ("'no' requirements'). (Or we could talk about your opinions.)

In a house, almost all 120V 15 & 20A receptacles have to be protected by AFCIs or GFCIs or both. Has been the NEC for at least 10 years.

The NEC is almost entirely about new work - "existing equipment can be 'as is'". The few NEC requirements for existing equipment in the future (with no new work) are substantially not enforceable.

"Grandfathering" is about not enforcing specific requirements on new wiring. For example for many years a 240V drier circuit could also use the neutral as a ground (with several requirements). The NEC now requires a separate ground, but existing circuits are "grandfathered". Else a new drier connection could not bond the N and G at the dryer.

Don't know about earlier, but there have been multiple revisions of the UL standard for GFCIs.

120V 15 & 20A GFCI receptacles for quite a few years have the feature. Probably also GFCI breakers but I don't know for sure.

You said "The problem is...."

So there is no "The problem is...."

There is no mechanism in the NEC to require buildings be kept up to current code. Such a requirement would be stupidly expensive. Other codes could have limited requirements, for instance, require 2 kitchen appliance circuits in rental units.

But not being up to current code is not a problem - there is no "The problem is...."

GFCI protected receptacles that have no ground connection must also to be labeled "No equipment ground".

There is no "The problem is...."

AFCIs address safety, including fire The NEC is about safety. It is published by the NFPA - National Fire Protection Assn.

The link is from 2000.

"Underwriters Laboratories requires that GFCIs be tested monthly". Has been with every GFCI package I have seen.

Standards for GFCIs (and AFCIs, and lots of other stuff) are often revised. This thread describes 3 revisions to the GFCI standard,

When I have days to charge, I just bring my batteries in, no extension code needed.

I suppose when you had a gas car, you would take jerry cans to the gas station too?

But they don't give out free gas at Primm. Until the up-coming Pilot EVSE is ready, I have to carry 3.5 ocean spray bottles of ventilator batteries (14 total) in a luggage. Ocean spray is the best (not necessary the juice) because it is more uniform at the top. Others are narrow at the top. Each bottle holds 4 batteries perfectly. The luggage hides the blinking lights (it's not functioning as a bomb, short of).

http://108.213.66.240/bat3.jpg

You really need to get to a shrink. This might still be early enough to be treatable.

Why? It's a practical solution to the difficult problem. Just need to hold-on for another year or so. EA and EvGo are building at Primm.

The battery sticks are 3S3P of Panasonics 18650B (3.4Ah, 10Wh). Each stick is 90Wh. A crate (size/weight of 4 gallon bottles) of 8x4 is around 3KWhr or 9 miles. 3 to 4 crates should cover Primm to Vegas or Primm to Baker.

The sticks were made in 2020, but never used. They are randomly tested to be 90% to 105% rated capacity. However, my original source is out; so, I am thinking of building 4S2P 16V version. The onboard BMS balances cells with 5 bars LED indicators. I would also bring that out with a 6 pins header on one end and same 12 pins on another. I would use the tabbed version of cells. So, just need a new PCB.

K&T, in your example, is easily protected with GFCIs, in your example.

I like circuits with grounds. But I survived living in a house and duplex with K&T.

Present house was originally wired in rigid conduit and now has GFCIs where new code requires. I would like to see actual stats on AFCIs (stats didn't exist for the NEC). I believe a major manufacturer was pushing AFCIs.

The NEC has some stupid provisions. The major relevant section of the code allows a 20A (or 30A or 50A) "single" receptacle on a 15A circuit. Same section doesn't allow some plug-in devices (amp rating) that UL allows (an unenforceable provision).

First sentence: "GFCI Protected". That is not "exactly" the same as "No equipment ground".

Where are the pictures of dead bodies. They are very effective in getting code changes.

Don't know about you. I test them if there is a remote possibility of useful protection - mostly working in the yard.

Where is the news of injuries from old GFCIs that would not have happened with 'new' GFCIs.

I don't see the major danger, for instance, of not immediately detecting a downstream N-G short. It will be detected when there is load current - voltage drop.

A major exception is that the originally mandated AFCIs were known to be, in effect, beta versions, with MUCH better detection coming real soon. But the NEC mandated them anyway.

You will be thrilled that a recent NEC revision requires that if a receptacle in new wiring now requires AFCI or GFCI protection, a replacement receptacle at that location requires that protection. It is a requirement that is not enforceable (unless you call an inspector when you replace a receptacle). But I am confident that everyone here will provide protection, as appropriate.

Just heard about a shrink doctor checking himself in a mental hospital for a short time (he assumed). A few years later, he sued the hospital for with-holding drugs and made him worst. Would have been better if he prescribed drugs for himself.

Anyway, good deal for $99 generator. Waiting for one by Fed-Ex snail mail. Might get couple more later. I need 2 and 5/16 generators for 384V.

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