Energy savings, do you care?

ent to

will

warm

ound or

ngly

s wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current pro vides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs about 1.4 kW here. That's plenty for instant on.

the UK. We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 20 amps in c ertain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as 9 amps, 240 v olts and is a fair amount of water heating. It may not be enough for a sho wer though. I did some not so quick calculations that show 9 amp, 240 volt

age shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so more power is needed, around 6 ti mes as much or more like 60 amps at 240 volts!

the shower? When having forgotten to turn the hot water heater back on th e other day, I found the water in the tank is sufficiently hot to take a sh ower in just a few minutes, less than 10. I'm curious as to just how much the water heater is actually on when no water is drawn.

es in my usage that are likely the water heater. There is some granularity in the kWhr reading but it looks like 0.4 kWHr each 5 hours for around 80 watts consumption not counting hot water drawn.

eater will save me around $40 a year on my TOU bill. Marginally worth it s ince it's not something I can just buy and install without either spending a bunch of money (240 volt stuff tends to be commercial $$$) or having to r ig up a relay to control the 240 from a 120 volt device. Not going to worr y with that just now.

iar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sockets circuits are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

Where is "here" and what connectors do you use for these various circuits?

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Ricketty C
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t's wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current p rovides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs abo ut 1.4 kW here. That's plenty for instant on.

n the UK. We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 20 amps in certain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as 9 amps, 240 volts and is a fair amount of water heating. It may not be enough for a s hower though. I did some not so quick calculations that show 9 amp, 240 vo

erage shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so more power is needed, around 6 times as much or more like 60 amps at 240 volts!

or the shower? When having forgotten to turn the hot water heater back on the other day, I found the water in the tank is sufficiently hot to take a shower in just a few minutes, less than 10. I'm curious as to just how muc h the water heater is actually on when no water is drawn.

ikes in my usage that are likely the water heater. There is some granulari ty in the kWhr reading but it looks like 0.4 kWHr each 5 hours for around 8

0 watts consumption not counting hot water drawn.

heater will save me around $40 a year on my TOU bill. Marginally worth it since it's not something I can just buy and install without either spendin g a bunch of money (240 volt stuff tends to be commercial $$$) or having to rig up a relay to control the 240 from a 120 volt device. Not going to wo rry with that just now.

iliar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sockets circuits ar e mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

?

UK. Power sockets are always 13A square pin 3 pin polarised with a fuse in the plug. (There is another type that's seldom seen.) Small to medium house s have long typically had all these sockets on 2 ring circuits, but larger places have more & medium houses often get 3 or 4 socket circuits now. We d o socket circuits differently to most of the world.

NT

Reply to
Tabby

It all depends on what is going to happen with the waste heat. This kind of pumps are used for heating anyway, so with the less efficient pump effectively you end up with a distributed heater. So I probably wouldn't care.

For the same reason, the incandescent light bulbs weren't that bad in the colder parts of Europe. Just a fancy heater, emitting light with low efficiency as a byproduct. Without them, another system needs to compensate that lack of heat, so the global savings may not be that big. Exactly the opposite in the warmer region, one had to get rid of that excessive heat.

Not really, at least in this case. Otherwise, I do care for the idle power/efficiency specs. 1W-year is about 1.2 USD here. If the device is of sufficiently high power and has a sufficiently high duty cycle, the saving here can be a significant fraction of that device's price.

IOT can be added to anything externally, and the Chinese will make the gadget at 1 dollar with free shipping. Wasted effort, IMO.

Best regards, Piotr

Reply to
Piotr Wyderski

It does. It allows for both external access due to the lack of security and is most likely connected to your LAN ? a perfect relay bridging these two worlds.

The "intelligent" kitchen scales have already been (ab)used that way.

Best regards, Piotr

Reply to
Piotr Wyderski

Yes, but that's something that can be remedied with a security-minded design (instead of naively thinking "Hey, we can just run Linux on it and get that connectivity for near-zero development costs!")

Reply to
Don Y

They are used here as a simple source of warmth and light for raising poultry, especially for the younger chicks. Effective and easy to set up.

Living in a country where labour is much cheaper than in the West, I still wonder how the Chinese do it. Many smokers here use Chinese piezo cigarette lighters that have an LED torchlight powered by three button cells. After passing through several profit-making hands since they left a Chinese factory, they sell for Rs.10. That's about 13 US cents.

Reply to
Pimpom

hat's wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs a bout 1.4 kW here. That's plenty for instant on.

in the UK. We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 20 amps in certain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as 9 amps, 2

40 volts and is a fair amount of water heating. It may not be enough for a shower though. I did some not so quick calculations that show 9 amp, 240

average shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so more power is needed, around

6 times as much or more like 60 amps at 240 volts!

for the shower? When having forgotten to turn the hot water heater back o n the other day, I found the water in the tank is sufficiently hot to take a shower in just a few minutes, less than 10. I'm curious as to just how m uch the water heater is actually on when no water is drawn.

spikes in my usage that are likely the water heater. There is some granula rity in the kWhr reading but it looks like 0.4 kWHr each 5 hours for around 80 watts consumption not counting hot water drawn.

er heater will save me around $40 a year on my TOU bill. Marginally worth it since it's not something I can just buy and install without either spend ing a bunch of money (240 volt stuff tends to be commercial $$$) or having to rig up a relay to control the 240 from a 120 volt device. Not going to worry with that just now.

amiliar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sockets circuits are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

ts?

n the plug. (There is another type that's seldom seen.) Small to medium hou ses have long typically had all these sockets on 2 ring circuits, but large r places have more & medium houses often get 3 or 4 socket circuits now. We do socket circuits differently to most of the world.

Ok, my faulty memory, 13 amps, not 9. But why are you talking about 32 amp s???

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Reply to
Ricketty C

In the UK ring mains system the ring itself is protected with something like 32 A, However, each plug connected to a ring mains socket is protected by a much smaller fuse relevant to the individual load current. Without this small fuse, e,g, a razor cord would have to be so thick that the cord is capable of burning the 32 A fuse, i.e several hundred Ampere peak current.

Reply to
upsidedown

That's the rating of the breaker they use on the circuit, it's a 32A circuit with 13A outlets.

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  Jasen.
Reply to
Jasen Betts

? What's wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house curr ent provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW v s about 1.4 kW here. That's plenty for instant on.

mon in the UK. We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 20 am ps in certain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as 9 amps , 240 volts and is a fair amount of water heating. It may not be enough fo r a shower though. I did some not so quick calculations that show 9 amp, 2

he average shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so more power is needed, arou nd 6 times as much or more like 60 amps at 240 volts!

ter for the shower? When having forgotten to turn the hot water heater bac k on the other day, I found the water in the tank is sufficiently hot to ta ke a shower in just a few minutes, less than 10. I'm curious as to just ho w much the water heater is actually on when no water is drawn.

nt spikes in my usage that are likely the water heater. There is some gran ularity in the kWhr reading but it looks like 0.4 kWHr each 5 hours for aro und 80 watts consumption not counting hot water drawn.

water heater will save me around $40 a year on my TOU bill. Marginally wor th it since it's not something I can just buy and install without either sp ending a bunch of money (240 volt stuff tends to be commercial $$$) or havi ng to rig up a relay to control the 240 from a 120 volt device. Not going to worry with that just now.

y familiar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sockets circui ts are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

cuits?

e in the plug. (There is another type that's seldom seen.) Small to medium houses have long typically had all these sockets on 2 ring circuits, but la rger places have more & medium houses often get 3 or 4 socket circuits now. We do socket circuits differently to most of the world.

amps???

So can you draw 32 amps from any one outlet? Is the 13 amp fuse in the soc ket or the appliance plug?

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Ricketty C

e:

??? What's wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house cu rrent provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs about 1.4 kW here. That's plenty for instant on.

ommon in the UK. We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 20 amps in certain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as 9 am ps, 240 volts and is a fair amount of water heating. It may not be enough for a shower though. I did some not so quick calculations that show 9 amp,

The average shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so more power is needed, ar ound 6 times as much or more like 60 amps at 240 volts!

water for the shower? When having forgotten to turn the hot water heater b ack on the other day, I found the water in the tank is sufficiently hot to take a shower in just a few minutes, less than 10. I'm curious as to just how much the water heater is actually on when no water is drawn.

tent spikes in my usage that are likely the water heater. There is some gr anularity in the kWhr reading but it looks like 0.4 kWHr each 5 hours for a round 80 watts consumption not counting hot water drawn.

t water heater will save me around $40 a year on my TOU bill. Marginally w orth it since it's not something I can just buy and install without either spending a bunch of money (240 volt stuff tends to be commercial $$$) or ha ving to rig up a relay to control the 240 from a 120 volt device. Not goin g to worry with that just now.

bly familiar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sockets circ uits are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

ircuits?

use in the plug. (There is another type that's seldom seen.) Small to mediu m houses have long typically had all these sockets on 2 ring circuits, but larger places have more & medium houses often get 3 or 4 socket circuits no w. We do socket circuits differently to most of the world.

32 amps???

ocket or the appliance plug?

no, the plug and socket is only rated for max 13A. the fuse is in the appliance plug

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

On Friday, August 7, 2020 at 9:35:40 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen w rote:

e:

ote:

ly??? What's wrong with instant on? In the households in the EU the house current provides for more power availability in a standard circuit, over 2 kW vs about 1.4 kW here. That's plenty for instant on.

common in the UK. We tend to have 15 amp 120 volts in the US, sometimes 2

0 amps in certain uses. 20 amps at 120 volts is practically the same as 9 amps, 240 volts and is a fair amount of water heating. It may not be enoug h for a shower though. I did some not so quick calculations that show 9 am

. The average shower uses around 2 gal a minute, so more power is needed, around 6 times as much or more like 60 amps at 240 volts!

t water for the shower? When having forgotten to turn the hot water heater back on the other day, I found the water in the tank is sufficiently hot t o take a shower in just a few minutes, less than 10. I'm curious as to jus t how much the water heater is actually on when no water is drawn.

ittent spikes in my usage that are likely the water heater. There is some granularity in the kWhr reading but it looks like 0.4 kWHr each 5 hours for around 80 watts consumption not counting hot water drawn.

hot water heater will save me around $40 a year on my TOU bill. Marginally worth it since it's not something I can just buy and install without eithe r spending a bunch of money (240 volt stuff tends to be commercial $$$) or having to rig up a relay to control the 240 from a 120 volt device. Not go ing to worry with that just now.

nably familiar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sockets ci rcuits are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

circuits?

fuse in the plug. (There is another type that's seldom seen.) Small to med ium houses have long typically had all these sockets on 2 ring circuits, bu t larger places have more & medium houses often get 3 or 4 socket circuits now. We do socket circuits differently to most of the world.

t 32 amps???

socket or the appliance plug?

Ok, then why did anyone bring 32 amps into this discussion? The issue bein g discussed was for instant on hot water. I suppose that would be a direct wired application, so then why are people talking about ring circuits and plugs?

I'm sorry I don't know more about how UK homes are wired. I've always foun d it to be very confusing with a lot of terms I don't know that appear to m ean something but often just another term for the same thing as in the US.

I suppose the term "ring" circuit is a bit different because in the UK it i s a higher current circuit than any one appliance is rated for. In the US any one appliance can draw the full current of a circuit which is typically 15 amps. The only real change in many, many years that affects compatibil ity is the use of three prong, grounded connectors. It used to be common to see a three prong to two prong plus ground wire adapters with their ground wire hanging loose. If the screw on a two prong outlet was grounded it wa s most likely through the neutral which was the problem the ground wire was intended to correct! What crap!

I do think the UK efforts at saving a few pennies is counter productive. I used to post in a UK ham group but they would be all over the map. The gr ounding methods are diverse in the UK but it is common to have no safety gr ound to the house, combining it with the neutral from the pole and having a ground connection at the house. The open neutral problem was exacerbated by an era of wiring with a thin aluminum foil safety ground that deteriorat ed in use leaving no safety grounds in those homes. In my homes there is a ground connection at the house AND a separate safety ground wire from the transformer.

It's all so messy.

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Reply to
Ricketty C

sonably familiar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sockets circuits are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

us circuits?

a fuse in the plug. (There is another type that's seldom seen.) Small to m edium houses have long typically had all these sockets on 2 ring circuits, but larger places have more & medium houses often get 3 or 4 socket circuit s now. We do socket circuits differently to most of the world.

out 32 amps???

A

he socket or the appliance plug?

ing discussed was for instant on hot water. I suppose that would be a dire ct wired application, so then why are people talking about ring circuits an d plugs?

You asked. It started out with a standard power circuit supplying a point o f use heater: 32A is the usual breaker rating. You can go higher, but no ne ed to for instant sink hot water.

und it to be very confusing with a lot of terms I don't know that appear to mean something but often just another term for the same thing as in the US .

is a higher current circuit than any one appliance is rated for. In the U S any one appliance can draw the full current of a circuit which is typical ly 15 amps. The only real change in many, many years that affects compatib ility is the use of three prong, grounded connectors. It used to be common to see a three prong to two prong plus ground wire adapters with their grou nd wire hanging loose. If the screw on a two prong outlet was grounded it was most likely through the neutral which was the problem the ground wire w as intended to correct! What crap!

They're called ring circuits because they are. The cable leaves the breaker , travels to lots of sockets around the house then returns to the breaker. The result is saved costs, improved safety & easier to add more sockets. Th at pretty much nowhere else in the world has adopted this system is it's ow n bit of weirdness. From what I've read it seems no foreigner understands i t. I don't know why though, it's not complex.

When introduced in 1947 it was to save costs in a country that was on its k nees & half bombed to bits after the war. It was very successful in that re spect, and its safety features were well ahead of its time. Our earlier ele ctrical wiring systems were not so good on safety and had proven to be inhe rently bonkers.

grounding methods are diverse in the UK but it is common to have no safety ground to the house, combining it with the neutral from the pole and havin g a ground connection at the house. The open neutral problem was exacerbat ed by an era of wiring with a thin aluminum foil safety ground that deterio rated in use leaving no safety grounds in those homes. In my homes there i s a ground connection at the house AND a separate safety ground wire from t he transformer.

Sounds like you've misunderstood what you read.

We have 3 earthing or as you call it grounding systems. They are TT, TN-S, TN-C-S. All extremely good wrt safety.

formatting link

TT is the oldest system. There is no supplier earth/ground, houses each hav e their own earth rod and there is RCD(GFCI) or on older installs ELCB prot ection on every circuit.

TN-S came next, with supplier earth.

TN-C-S (aka PME) combines N&E on the supplier's side. It goes to great/exce ssive lengths to protect against the open neutral issue.

The only place I've ever seen ali foil used for an earth connection is insi de historic appliances, many of which have safety practices that would be j ailworthy in today's society.

NT

Reply to
Tabby

easonably familiar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Socket s circuits are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

ious circuits?

th a fuse in the plug. (There is another type that's seldom seen.) Small to medium houses have long typically had all these sockets on 2 ring circuits , but larger places have more & medium houses often get 3 or 4 socket circu its now. We do socket circuits differently to most of the world.

about 32 amps???

32A

the socket or the appliance plug?

being discussed was for instant on hot water. I suppose that would be a di rect wired application, so then why are people talking about ring circuits and plugs?

of use heater: 32A is the usual breaker rating. You can go higher, but no need to for instant sink hot water.

No, I didn't until someone else said, "32 amps" to correct my 9 amp number which should have been 13 amps. So the outlets are only 13 amps and a dire ct feed is needed for 32 amps. That should have been the answer about four posts ago.

found it to be very confusing with a lot of terms I don't know that appear to mean something but often just another term for the same thing as in the US.

it is a higher current circuit than any one appliance is rated for. In the US any one appliance can draw the full current of a circuit which is typic ally 15 amps. The only real change in many, many years that affects compat ibility is the use of three prong, grounded connectors. It used to be commo n to see a three prong to two prong plus ground wire adapters with their gr ound wire hanging loose. If the screw on a two prong outlet was grounded i t was most likely through the neutral which was the problem the ground wire was intended to correct! What crap!

.

er, travels to lots of sockets around the house then returns to the breaker . The result is saved costs, improved safety & easier to add more sockets. That pretty much nowhere else in the world has adopted this system is it's own bit of weirdness. From what I've read it seems no foreigner understands it. I don't know why though, it's not complex.

What is the purpose of the last leg returning to the box??? That seems rat her odd. I don't see any way this arrangement saves in any costs. Does th e rating rely on the current flowing in both legs to a given load? That wo uld seem rather dangerous, so it must not be the intent. Every wire has to be sized to take the full load because if a wire or connection failed, ins tead of a given load not working any longer the full current would be drawn over the remaining link.

Where is the cost savings? Are you talking about electricity I^2R loss sav ings? That should be pretty microscopic in your utility bill.

knees & half bombed to bits after the war. It was very successful in that respect, and its safety features were well ahead of its time. Our earlier e lectrical wiring systems were not so good on safety and had proven to be in herently bonkers.

What is more cost effective or safer about wasting copper by completing a r ing? The last or longest leg (your choice) in the circuit could be elimina ted saving money.

he grounding methods are diverse in the UK but it is common to have no safe ty ground to the house, combining it with the neutral from the pole and hav ing a ground connection at the house. The open neutral problem was exacerb ated by an era of wiring with a thin aluminum foil safety ground that deter iorated in use leaving no safety grounds in those homes. In my homes there is a ground connection at the house AND a separate safety ground wire from the transformer.

, TN-C-S. All extremely good wrt safety.

I think you mean they all suck and have different risks.

ave their own earth rod and there is RCD(GFCI) or on older installs ELCB pr otection on every circuit.

This is why I hate discussing UK electrics. Every time they do some new te rm pops up. Wikipedia doesn't give any diagrams for the ELCB so I'm not go ing to wade through a bunch of prose to try to figure out what they are say ing and exactly what it does. Needless to say it was not adequate because it is replaced by the RCD, no?

In the many conversations I've had about TT it is very clear that if you wa nt to use a power tool outside of the house it becomes dangerous because th ere is no safe ground. The ground outside the house is not the ground insi de the house.

You mean with the commonly failed aluminum foil protective earth?

cessive lengths to protect against the open neutral issue.

By "excessive lengths" you mean the same local ground connections as TT? W ithout a local ground all safety depends on no failures of the common PEN. Why not just use TT? No, don't answer that. I'm truly fed up with learni ng about the multiple choice answer to the question of how does the UK get electricity to homes?

side historic appliances, many of which have safety practices that would be jailworthy in today's society.

You can discuss that with the Radio Society of Great Britain. A lot of old timers so they can't be questioned without insulting them. More than one spoke of lines in the ground with protective earth on an aluminum foil wrap per that didn't last 10 years. They also complained that it was very hard to get the electric company to fix them, claiming there was nothing wrong a s long as they could detect any conductivity... or something like that.

Oh yeah, they insisted that EVs will never be practical in the UK because s o many people live in housing that can't provide a charging outlet. Ok, in 10 years they will have access to all the oil they want because so many ot hers will be powering their cars from solar and wind.

I was out today and noticed the price of gas was only $1.91 a gallon. That would be about 39 p a liter I think. Or does the UK still use gallons for gas?

I will say that while the US sucks in holding onto the imperial system (or

ut, etc)... I forget what I was going to say good about the US. lol Oh, yeah, we have a pretty straight forward, safe electrical system with a sepa rate ground wire all the way back to the transformer. Yeah, we used a bit of copper to make it completely safe without requiring the soil to be moist or anything else about the location.

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Reply to
Ricketty C

:

e:

:

reasonably familiar with wiring practices going back to around 1910.) Sock ets circuits are mostly 32A, some 20A, some 30A, a few 15A or 16A.

arious circuits?

with a fuse in the plug. (There is another type that's seldom seen.) Small to medium houses have long typically had all these sockets on 2 ring circui ts, but larger places have more & medium houses often get 3 or 4 socket cir cuits now. We do socket circuits differently to most of the world.

g about 32 amps???

a 32A

in the socket or the appliance plug?

e being discussed was for instant on hot water. I suppose that would be a direct wired application, so then why are people talking about ring circuit s and plugs?

nt of use heater: 32A is the usual breaker rating. You can go higher, but n o need to for instant sink hot water.

r which should have been 13 amps. So the outlets are only 13 amps and a di rect feed is needed for 32 amps. That should have been the answer about fo ur posts ago.

I've read your whole reply so I know you're confused.

s found it to be very confusing with a lot of terms I don't know that appea r to mean something but often just another term for the same thing as in th e US.

K it is a higher current circuit than any one appliance is rated for. In t he US any one appliance can draw the full current of a circuit which is typ ically 15 amps. The only real change in many, many years that affects comp atibility is the use of three prong, grounded connectors. It used to be com mon to see a three prong to two prong plus ground wire adapters with their ground wire hanging loose. If the screw on a two prong outlet was grounded it was most likely through the neutral which was the problem the ground wi re was intended to correct! What crap!

ve.

aker, travels to lots of sockets around the house then returns to the break er. The result is saved costs, improved safety & easier to add more sockets . That pretty much nowhere else in the world has adopted this system is it' s own bit of weirdness. From what I've read it seems no foreigner understan ds it. I don't know why though, it's not complex.

ather odd. I don't see any way this arrangement saves in any costs. Does the rating rely on the current flowing in both legs to a given load? That would seem rather dangerous, so it must not be the intent. Every wire has to be sized to take the full load because if a wire or connection failed, i nstead of a given load not working any longer the full current would be dra wn over the remaining link.

that's a common misunderstanding

avings? That should be pretty microscopic in your utility bill.

You're funny, but I'll answer that one.

  1. Less total cable & copper. We use 1 power circuit where you'd use half a dozen.
  2. Less mcbs & CU (fusebox) space.
  3. Less RCDs/GFCIs
  4. Adding new sockets later is much cheaper: add all you want where you wan t with no new circuit back to the CU (fusebox)
  5. One of the prime initial motivators was that a householder could take 2 existing 15A radial circuits, connect them together with a cable & add all the new sockets they wanted. The big deal was not just the saving in materi als, it was the savings in not needing an electrician.

ts knees & half bombed to bits after the war. It was very successful in tha t respect, and its safety features were well ahead of its time. Our earlier electrical wiring systems were not so good on safety and had proven to be inherently bonkers.

ring? The last or longest leg (your choice) in the circuit could be elimi nated saving money.

A high R connection in a radial circuit is dangerous. A high R connection in a ring circuit is safe.

The grounding methods are diverse in the UK but it is common to have no sa fety ground to the house, combining it with the neutral from the pole and h aving a ground connection at the house. The open neutral problem was exace rbated by an era of wiring with a thin aluminum foil safety ground that det eriorated in use leaving no safety grounds in those homes. In my homes the re is a ground connection at the house AND a separate safety ground wire fr om the transformer.

-S, TN-C-S. All extremely good wrt safety.

have their own earth rod and there is RCD(GFCI) or on older installs ELCB protection on every circuit.

term pops up. Wikipedia doesn't give any diagrams for the ELCB so I'm not going to wade through a bunch of prose to try to figure out what they are s aying and exactly what it does. Needless to say it was not adequate becaus e it is replaced by the RCD, no?

Yup. ELCBs monitored voltage between frame (in house earth connections) and an exterior earth rod. If it reached 50v they disconnected the supply. Tha t addresses the high resistance earth issue, but gives no direct contact pr otection that the RCD/GFCI gives.

want to use a power tool outside of the house it becomes dangerous because there is no safe ground.

on the contrary

of course not

FWIW our feed looks like it's paper insulated. I'm guessing from some time around WW1. Silly authorities won't let them replace it, so they just repai r as long a section as they can when it pops.

excessive lengths to protect against the open neutral issue.

no

N.

not all, but a) N&E failure is a hazard b) N&E failure is pretty much unheard of due to the extra precautions taken with PME supplies.

Supplier earths are safer than local rods. Low R earth connection means ear thed metalwork doesn't reach shock voltage during a hard short before a bre aker trips. We still have large numbers of ancient TT supplies.

Connecting to a pole pig means your earths are all TT afaik. We've used TN- S since at least the 1930s.

choice answer to the question of how does the UK get electricity to homes?

inside historic appliances, many of which have safety practices that would be jailworthy in today's society.

ld timers so they can't be questioned without insulting them. More than on e spoke of lines in the ground with protective earth on an aluminum foil wr apper that didn't last 10 years. They also complained that it was very har d to get the electric company to fix them, claiming there was nothing wrong as long as they could detect any conductivity... or something like that.

It's BS. Network operators are strongly motivated to be very protective of their supplies' safe record, and are well aware that a lot of their supply infrastructure predates WW2. Last time I told one their connections were un dersize they sent someone over in hours & replaced the lot a few days later . I don't believe there were ever any al foil connections. Our wiring regs go back to 1882:

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so many people live in housing that can't provide a charging outlet.

that one's debated. We don't have the national system capacity the US has. Everyone that can park at their home could slow charge overnight, but a) many in towns & cities can't park at home b) for fast charging the infrastructure isn't there

many others will be powering their cars from solar and wind.

at would be about 39 p a liter I think. Or does the UK still use gallons f or gas?

onut, etc)... I forget what I was going to say good about the US. lol Oh , yeah, we have a pretty straight forward, safe electrical system with a se parate ground wire all the way back to the transformer. Yeah, we used a bi t of copper to make it completely safe without requiring the soil to be moi st or anything else about the location.

Ours is safer. It's overengineered. We don't see bad neutral problems, we h ave better connectors, insulated plug prongs, proper cordgrips, no flammabl e card lining lamp holders, all sockets on new installs are GFCIed, etc etc . 20 or so people a year die from electrocution out of 65 million - nearly always because they were doing something idiotic.

Another example. Years ago BT wanted to use US plugs for mains. They had th em officially assessed. They got approval for 50v 2.5A max. They violate ne arly every rule in the book for mains use here. We are the nanny state.

NT

Reply to
Tabby

circuit ?

Yes, that part is easy. It has to be looked at from a system level though. If national codes require substantial physical distancing between such LV wiring and mains wiring this can present installation challenges. For bathrooms and kitchens codes can be very picky.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

You'd have to look at all the targeted markets in detail. Here is an example from the IT world:

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Quote "When running unshielded data cable parallel to typical residential voltage power cables (110V for example), the NEC (National Electric Code) specifies it must be separated by at least 200mm or 8 inches. The NEC further specifies that shielded data cabling may be run in parallel with lower voltage residential power cable if a distance of

50mm or 2 inches is observed"

And that's not even a bathroom application.

--
Gruesse, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

Jeez! Eight whole inches, I guess I'm going to need a bigger house!

--
  Rick C. 

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Reply to
Ricketty C

Have you checked the actual NEC wording ?

I would not trust that blog very much. The reason given was magnetic field induction between the power and ethernet and this is claimed to be worse with higher voltages. The magnetic induction is dependent on current (and frequency) not voltage. For this reason, do not run signal cables close to VFD cables feeding a big motor, since the current waveform is awful with lots of harmonics. A good quality twisted pair quite effectively cancels a lot of external induction.

The author doesn't even know IEC voltage classification :-).

If the NEC really demands such distances, drill an extra hole into the concrete bathroom wall with a hammer drill.

Reply to
upsidedown

It's also not what the Code says! Read section 800. Note power circuits, comm circuits, other class2/3, prohibitions/allowances within a Jbox, etc.

There are additional "best practices" that aren't enforced by the Code but that will make your life easier (e.g., don't run telco lines alongside network lines).

Reply to
Don Y

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