cheap usb ("thumb") drives

The USB protocol only identifies 'mass storage device' characteristics, not read/write permissions. Any permission mechanism isn't standard (might work only on one filesystem type, or one vendor's mark 3 control model...).

You'd be better off using SD card (maybe plugging an SDcard micro module into a $0.79 USB reader), because the SD card specs DO include write locking by a number of mechanisms, some hardware and some software. Also, naturally, you'd want a checksum or hash that can be checked against the contents of any pretender to legitimacy...

Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?

No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features. An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)

Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to fail.

On a sunny day (Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:22:09 -0700) it happened Don Y snipped-for-privacy@foo.invalid wrote in <uk8317$v4vl$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

I bought a cheap 1 TB USB stick, it lasted a few weeks. Opening it up I found that the PCB had pads for input protection parts none were fitted.

OTOH I have an old 'Duracell' 16 GB USB stick that is still fine after more than 20 years daily use.

As to write protectioon, no way, one can always do a dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/USBSTICK if one wants to. Old SDcards had a mechanical switch, glue it? LOL

If you've got something "mission critical" it might be best to avoid a cheap drive. If you buy a cheap 32GB drive, perhaps it's a "failed" 64GB drive. Is the 32GB you've got left reliable?

I installed a backup mechanism to copy daily backups to a thumb drive. That failed after 6 months or so. The thumb drive is no more recognized at all to normal usb software not even as a device.

So repetitive writing is a bad idea. (The backups were instead copied to the mount directories. So they were there. It was the idea to have the backups on a different medium. Now I write to a different hard drive in the same machine.)

Groetjes Albert

It might be.

That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.

If it writes and verifies OK then it should be good for quite a few reads if it is looked after. Longevity might be an issue longer term so not in the sun and kept cool and dry would make sense. I have had the odd really cheap and nasty one croak on first use but it is rare.

Leave it in a machine shop full of metal swarf and all bets are off!

Yeah, "might".

Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place selling refurbished machines. So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")

Wasn't til his first or second response that he said the "clients" are kids (in which case ... "is it the school's property, or ... what?")

Well sure. But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter" branded ones)

Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to screw over his customers? "Not my problem!"

Do you take the same attitude with your *designs*: "*I* hae been paid so any problems henceforth are the client's!"

It was my second post -- first response.

And, again, why would you ever think it's NOT a supplier's problem to ensure he supplies a quality product?

No, it's not the school's property. These are just individuals (underprivileged youth who can't afford to BUY a computer; does that mean they can be screwed over because they haven't made any cash outlay?) being serviced by a non-profit. Just as if they'd PURCHASED a machine, from a store, they would expect to return to that store (for support) if they had a problem.

In the past, we have been too generous with our (volunteer) time in trying to restore machines that had been grossly misused; investing hours to recover files from horribly infected/corrupted disks. (should we also have just said "not our problem"? How does that serve those youth?)

My approach has reshifted the balance of responsibility to the clients -- if you misuse YOUR computer, you risk losing YOUR files. The only remedy that we can offer you is to restore the computer to the state that it was WHEN WE GAVE IT TO YOU. And, hey, look: we'll give YOU the ability to do that so you don't have to take the bus to our shop for that repair! Aren't we incredibly supportive?!

For our market, it wouldn't matter. Do we get all holier-than-thou and tell the (underprivileged youth) client that he's not taken good enough care of his computer so we aren't going to help him? What if he breaks the keyboard? Screen? Do we "charge" him (underprivileged youth) for the repair? (he couldn't afford to BUY the machine but he *can* afford to pay for its repair?)

These sorts quickly learn how to manipulate the system; so you have to design "rules" that discourage that:

"Gee, *so* sorry to see you broke the screen on your laptop. But, leave it with us and we'll get it back to you in a FEW WEEKS (free of charge) once we've been able to repair it."

"Can't you just give me a replacement laptop?"

"Sorry, no (cuz you would then treat each laptop we've given you as disposable, knowing any problems will get you a replacement!)."

"But, you USED TO just give replacements..."

"Yeah, but we no longer have as many laptops available to be able to be able to just DISCARD broken ones...like yours"

Then, with (some) of the costs for their actions born by them, there is a chance they will think twice before engaging in similar conduct.

If your (paying) customer trashes the item he BOUGHT from you, do you tell him to go suck eggs because he mistreated it? How much responsibility can he heap on you for creating a product that was so EASILY mistreated?

Even if you refuse to comp him for his losses, do you, also, refuse to do any further business with him?

When your customer doesn't give you monies for your product, the dynamics change! ("You've been a bad boy! We're going to cut our ties to you...")

"Looked after" is a problem. The beauty of the restore partition was that they didn't have to *do* anything to have it available. The thumb drive will require them to keep it on hand... somewhere.

OTOH, if they misplace it, then THEY are inconvenienced as they will have to bring the machine into the shop. On public transportation. Time that they could have used for some other purpose (essential or recreational).

I was hoping the drives could be made non-reusable (R/O) to eliminate their being used/traded/sold for purposes other than as THEIR backup:

"I lost my thumb drive; can I have another?"

"OK, I'll put in a work order to have one made for you. What's your machine's serial number (so we can look up the correct image to place on the drive for YOUR machine)? Oh, you don't have that handy? Well, get back to us when you do..."

Many of these kids don't have permanent places to *sleep* (let alone LIVE). So, everything that they have to keep track of is a challenge. Our GOAL isn't to make their life any harder. OTOH, *they* should assume responsibility for maintaining their improved quality of life and not just ASSUME that we'll forever be accommodating their LACK of responsibility.

We used to give out SFF desktop machines. But, that was limited to kids who had a place to SET UP such a machine!

And, if their living arrangements (inevitably "temporary") changed, the machine could get lost (left behind) in the "move".

Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything AND if you think you can get another, for free!

Some USB sticks can be very reliable. I recently tested a Samsung FIT+

I wouldn't doubt it. But, there is likely a direct relationship between cost and quality (with exceptions). The thumb drive isn't intended to see much use (goal: zero!) so read performance isn't a driving force (I can reinstall an image in just a few minutes; no need to do a real/slow "install"). This should let us drive down the cost of the drive *and* make the drives less valuable as possible resale items: "Where is your restore drive?" "I lost (sold!) it..."

Our goals are:

- don't significantly increase our costs (passed on to donors)

- ensure it's continued availability (i.e., not overwritten!)

- don't "tempt" the clients (by providing something that has other value that they could exploit to OUR detriment)

If laptops had internal USB slots (like many servers), that would be the ideal spot to install it.

I've lost *one* thumbdrive to malfunction (going R/O). But, I have noticed that write speed seems to suffer with more frequent writes.

I had initially advocated for having the kids store "their" files on thumb drives so there was no risk of losing anything on the disk drive if (when!) it is restored from a backup. This seemed idea as it also broke the reliance on a particular computer (i.e., their files could be portable).

In practice, this didn't work because of degradation in the thumb drives.

So, now I have a second partition ("D:") that they are intended to use as persistent storage. *If* they don't munge the disk (like trying to install an OS upgrade), then I can restore their "system" partition and their user files will be right where they left them.

Again, you want to serve THEIR needs but without increasing YOUR costs (time/effort/donations) in the process.

I recall having one fall apart on me - a cheap and nasty one but it was very much a one off and it might have been provoked by previous bad handling by the owner. It had some battle scars shall we say...

Unlike a Fluke multimeter they don't take kindly to being driven over!

If your laptops have full size SD card slots, you could use micro-SDs with adapters.

Lots of adapters have a “read-only” switch, and that plus a drop of epoxy seems like a reasonable solution.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

How on earth is it "screwing over the customer" to require an exchange of money for services rendered? It's not like "hey Don, I tried installing Linux, and ruined my PC" is exactly something that should be fixed under that "30 day warranty" your PC repair shop offers for refurbished machines.

When the problem is "hey Dan, so I erased the EEPROM on your board, and now it doesn't work!" ... yeah, Not My Problem. I didn't ship the product with any interface to that 256-bit EEPROM with my super-secret-go-code ("12345" ;) ).

When the problem is "Hey Dan, so I hooked your thing up like the example said, but pin X2 isn't working", well either

1. I made an error in the design (or example) OR 2. The user messed up in a recoverable way ("Oh, you plugged the LED into pin X1") OR 3. The user messed up in a partially-recoverable way ("Oh, you forgot the resistor on the LED, it burned out. Get a new LED from the bin") OR 3. The user messed up in a completely non-recoverable way ("You tried to drive a motor directly from the I/O pins?? Board's dead.")

There's a VAST difference between someone designing / selling a product that doesn't live up to the measure of "quality" and the idea that a vendor is somehow "still responsible" when ownership changes hands.

AH HAH! A non-profit. That explains so much.

Indeed, and that support tends to cost money.

If these "underpriveleged kids" are involved with your nonprofit as some kind of "care" program (either via school aftercare, or some other community outreach thingy via the local community center, etc) ... then they are not really "customers" are they; but rather "users" of computers that your nonprofit loans out.

In which case, it sounds like you need better rules around what they can do with your equipment, and what the consequences of asking for help after they get viruses or fail at installing Linux, etc.

Well, if they broke the USB connector clear off their USB stick, there's kind of "literally nothing you can do" at that point.

My other comment about "it fell apart" is more looking at those super chintzy ones that sometimes live in boxes at convenience-store checkout counters. I'm pretty sure that bubble-packing on most products is sturdier plastic than the housing on those things.

Yes. The nature of this "charge" depends on the nature of your nonprofit and their relationship with it (and their age). I've seen some aftercare type programs require good grades on a week's worth of homework, or community outreach type programs require various forms of chores (suited to the age of the child, ofc).

I wouldn't characterize it as thus. At the end of the day, the client can always bring the laptop back and we can reload *its* image from the server (I archive images "by serial number")

But, it adds to our cost (time) -- and their inconvenience.

There's that.

But, there are two ways of looking at that issue.

If you're needs are "small", you can argue that lots of fall-out parts (even including GOOD parts) can address those needs. So, a manufacturer selling something as a 16G drive that may have wanted to be a 64G drive is reasonable (or, abandon that market entirely).

OTOH, if the manufacturer is (likely) trying to chase the bigger devices market, is he more inclined to let some devices slip through that, strictly speaking, won't be quite as good as they should?

I guess it depends on how much you value your reputation.

I bought a weedeater on sale at Lowes and could not get it started. No Spatk. Took it back and got credit for it and had to buy a new one that was not on sale. They should have just given me a replacement.

No. You seem to not understand the concept I'm stating though.

So what?

You're already "charged" them a couple of hours worth of menial labor around your facility for the "gift" of the laptop in the first place. Now they're getting "charged" for the "gift" of the repair work.