basic ECL question

And competition. You can get virtually all the PECL parts from Arizona Microtek and QUICKLY.

AND you get the added benefit that *I* designed a lot of the parts ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

You just call in and talk to a real person... it's only about a 4-man shop.

Nope.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

For a reason unknown to me, they still manufacture the

10k series. This while the 100k series is temperature compensated. Could there be an advantage to use the temperature dependent 10k series for selected applications ?

Rene

--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

Harald Muller will take you to a nice German restaurant ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

I have no idea... 'twasn't my design. As others have discussed here, followers can go oscillatory with capacitive loads. Maybe it was something like that.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Hello Rene,

One reason could be a few key customers. Often they demand from the mfg to guarantee x many years or even decades of reliable supplies before they design in parts. Look at the LM331 (V/F converter). It never made it to an SO package but is alive and kicking. And it doesn't have true competition at its price range.

Regards, Joerg

Thanks, but from what I've seen not really. They tend to be in one datasheet and differ in the DC specifications but share the AC specs.

Rene

[...]

Then you are the one to go to when you have a problem? For example, long ago I had one layout using a 10H131 dual D, where one side would sometimes go into oscillation. All the input AC and DC parameters were met, and both the Q and QBar showed a sine wave at several hundred MHz.

This never happened on previous layouts, which were all multilayer with buried power and ground. The Motorola rep didn't have a clue what caused it or how to fix it.

We had too many boards already populated to scrap the run. The cure was to lift pin 16 (gnd) and install a small ferrite bead. The problem disappeared on the next run and we never saw it again.

What caused it, and what can we do to prevent things like that in the future?

Mike Monett

Hello Jim,

I don't design too often with ECL but their data sheets always amaze me. The last column reads picoseconds instead of nanoseconds. Under quiescent current it is the other way around, mA instead of uA. Well, you guys have Hoover Dam, we don't.

Why don't they have pricing on their web site? That's kind of important for a hardware designer.

Did you have the layouter place a little "JT" somewhere on a mask?

Regards, Joerg

Hello Jim,

I don't design too often with ECL but their data sheets always amaze me. The last column reads picoseconds instead of nanoseconds. Under quiescent current it is the other way around, mA instead of uA. Well, you guys have Hoover Dam, we don't.

Why don't they have pricing on their web site? That's kind of important for a hardware designer.

Did you have the layouter place a little "JT" somewhere on a mask?

Regards, Joerg

problem

By nature I am a pessimistic cautious designer but, at AZM, we did have one part come back from the foundry with a propensity to sing. But we fixed the design before any part was ever sold.

BTW, I reverse-engineer the original PECL parts to find out how I'm NOT going to do the design... avoids patent issues, plus I can usually spot why the original parts had squirrels. That's why the AZM parts consistently behave better than the original.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

problem

Did you do their 10ELT21? It's a mile better than the original Moto part, which had truly strange jitter behavior.

John

problem

I've found ECL (and the faster EclipsLite) to be very well-behaved on multilayer boards. In fact it's very quiet, without the nasty glitches you get from fast CMOS logic. We just did some GigaLogic designs, the stuff with 40 ps edges, and it was super-clean (it should be, for $35 a gate!)

ECL also has a very low delay tempco; the EclipsLite stuff runs below

1 ps/K typically, far better than any CMOS part. Too bad it's an expensive power hog. 90 degree bends and vias are no problem with 10KH or even EL edges.

John

Hello Jim,

If they give out the pricing right off the bat that's ok. Web site budgetary pricing is still better. What I really hate is when vendors want to know all kinds of info, like who my client is and so on. That doesn't fly.

Maybe if I'd design lots of these in they take me out to Rustler's Roost...

Regards, Joerg

problem

IIRC that was a design by Earl Schreyer (now at Fairchild) with me advising over his shoulder.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

problem

Not yours? Oh well, too bad. It seems all the good problems were with parts you had nothing to do with:)

Mike Monett

problem

Yup. We usually bevel corners, just for looks.

Never seen a trace break at a corner. Have you?

I absolutely don't miss leaning over a hot light table, holding my breath, trying to center traces between pads, for a couple of weeks at a stretch. And now I can do a netlist/design rules/plane check in 10 seconds instead of 2 days.

Used to be that, if I asked my layout guy to rip up a section and move it 30 mils north, he's try to lynch me. Now it's done in 5 seconds. Can you imagine hand-taping an 8-layer board full of SOT and BGA parts?

I don't miss Bishop Graphics one bit either.

John

Good guys.

John

[...]

Dumb question - but it may make a difference in purchasing. What's AZM?

Google was no help.

Mike Monett