About PLL

Nov 06, 2014 28 Replies

These issues are unrelated.

You can introduce a phase step and watch the loop response, but you need a proper loop filter to separate the phase response so you can measure it. Very few loops have the required filter. It is usually easier to introduce a small frequency step and look for the proper loop damping response. The damping waveforms are illustrated in innumerable engineering and mechanical sites.

Manually optimizing the filter will have no effect on the deadband. This is caused when the loop amplifier is too slow to pass the narrow pulses from the phase detector when the error is near zero. You can introduce extra delay in the reset path to make the pulses wider, or use a different loop amplifier to eliminate the deadband.

Usually the best approach is to use the design that gives the minimum reset delay since this minimizes the phase error while the up and down current sources are both on. You also need a good LC filter at the input to the error amplifier to avoid overloading the input stage and introducing extra phase noise.

You are going to have problems modeling this in SPICE. The ratio between the loop filter and the carrier frequency is too large.

Rubidiums are usually very noisy and would be unsuitable for multiplication to 10GHz. The SRS PRS10 is one of the few that have a low phase noise oscillator suitable for frequency multiplication. They are not too expensive:

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If that is too much, you would get far better results using a quality OCXO with a very loose lock to 1PPS from GPS. Loose lock means a very low bandwidth PLL. You can get a Morion MV89 OCXO on eBay real cheap. Be advised the output coupling capacitor often goes open and it will no longer drive 50 ohms. I have several like that. There is a way to open the case by unsoldering the case and inserting a thin titanium wedge between the case and the bottom as you go around the case. Then you can change the cap and resolder. There are few web sites that show the MV89 disassembled and illustrate the oven construction. Unfortunately my Windows just crashed so I cannot search for the urls.

However, if you don't feel like fixing the cap, there is usually plenty of signal left to drive a high impedance load, such as a quality zero cross detector mounted directly on the unit.

Also know the MV89 is basically a 5MHz OCXO with an internal doubler to

10MHz. If you multiply to a higher frequency you have to add extra filtering to remove the 5MHz sidebands. This could be done with a low bqandwidth PLL.

You can check the Time-Nuts archives for detailed information on Rubidium, OCXO, GPSDO, ADEV, DMTD, and all other topics related to accurate low phase noise frequency stabilization.

You can search the Time-Nuts archive using this url plus your search string:

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"Your Search String"

[...]

Here is the url for repairing the MV89

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Here are some comments on the repair. Note the reply, "Someone may have sold Morion a reel of bad caps."

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Here are some eBay listings for the MV89. The cheapest is $23.29 with free shipping. Watch the wrap

There are two issues here, deadband in the PLL and How his loop responds to it.

We use Rubidium and GPS to steer the 106.5 Mhz oscillator all the time. We are NOT multiplying the Rubidium direct up to 10 Ghz.

These techniques work, hence the recent record on 77 Ghz at upwards of 200 kM.

One of the techniques to get out of the deadband is to optimize the loop once built and add an offset. That is covered in the presentation I am speaking of.

Steve

Steve, the radar horizon in nautical miles is (sqrt(h1) + sqrt(h2)) * 1.23, where h1 and h2 are the antenna height in feet. This is an approximate calculation but is universal and good enough for the following.

Setting h1=h2 and converting to statute miles, both antennas would have to be at a height of 101,068 feet to reach 900 miles.

In the event you slipped a decimal and meant 90 statute miles, the antennas would have to be at a height of 1,010 feet which is much more realistic.

Phase noise is phase noise. It doesn't matter whether you are amateur or commercial if you need the best performance.

Tom, Those terrestrial records involve Troposcatter Ducting, and Rain Scatter.

North American: 1300 Km California to Baja Sur, Mexico United Kingdome to Sweden: 1347km which is 836 Miles. Australia 843 Km.

If you really want to go the distance, there is Earth Moon Earth as well.

Steve

On a sunny day (Sat, 8 Nov 2014 20:27:51 -0800 (PST)) it happened snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in :

Yes I'd like to try a moon bounce on 2.4 GHz :-)

The other thing about distance at 10 GHz is reception from a geosat. The Qatar sat will have: Linear transponder 2400.050 - 2400.300 MHz Uplink 10489.550 - 10489.800 MHz Downlink

Wideband digital transponder 2401.5 - 2409.5 MHz Uplink 10491.0 - 10499.0 MHz Downlink

So SSB via the linear transponder would be a challenge. Ony 250 kHz width, you need 100 Hz or better absolute accuracy. Or am I missing something? Distance is 40,000 km (up, followed by 40,000 km down).

Oh, Did some searching based on frequency. So your going after the ES'hail2 transponder. We don't know much about that on this side of the pond.

Your main two variables are the minimum footprint of your intended dish and the noise figure of your preamp. Generating the uplink power would be easy at 2.4 Ghz. Low noise preamps are easier at 2.4 Ghz.

Getting on frequency would not be that much of a problem with a good IF rig.

Steve

Ducting - very much like the lottery. Not much skill needed, mostly luck. Only possible in a few places. Have you listened to any of the signals? They are so noisy that even a poor loop would work fine, even a Rubidium.

Rain Scatter - This could work any place where there are good storms. The signals are also very noisy. Neither of these examples show real need for a low noise LO.

Moonbounce - This is much more difficult and really needs the best quality loops you can get for low noise as well as doppler correction. Very high skill needed.

Mars Orbiters - these probably represent the most difficult signals to receive. Only the best loops will do. Very high skill required.

ah, sweat music to my ears!, Ham Radio, Ghz, IFs, PLLs,LNAs, LBNs, rubidium bases.

Real Men, none of that ticker stuff held together node to node via coil springs. ;)

Jamie

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