60V DC dangerous?

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 20:46:59 -0700, John Larkin Gave us:

Yet you recorded nor attempted to record the surface area of contact, which is 100% proportionate to skin resistance. Dry hands, wet hands, lotion bathed hands??? All make a difference, and pinching the lead between the thumb and forefinger is definitive of very little.

Grow up.

You obviously didn't read the thread. I mentioned a 40kV event in one response.

On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 00:27:34 -0400, Mike Monett Gave us:

Why no mention of respiratory illness? That is one of the most health threatening.

I would not be inclined to do any form of "testing" to determine the physiological responses of my body to AC voltages as death is always a possability. If you wish to experiment have a person trained in CPR with you and a phone near by to call for medical assistance.

I have had some involvement in Voltage Reduction Devices (VRD's) as used on electric welders (not from a design point, only to evaluate from the point of an end user). These devices are designed to reduce the open circuit voltage of either an AC or DC welder to a level considered safe when not actually welding. There is a significant amount of literature around that details fatalities as a result of current flow through the body when using welders, what the recommended precautions are, and the results of coronial enquiries and control authority investigations into the electrocution of persons using welders.

Many (especially older) welders have open circuit voltage approaching, and in some instances exceeding, 100 volts AC, and welder operators are renowned for getting a "bite" when changing rods. More common open circuit voltage from welding machines is 50 to 80 volts. (eg, Lincoln Idealarc DC 400, a very common welder in fabrication shops, max open circuit voltage of 67 volts DC).

Typically, electrocution when welding has occurred as a result of current flowing through the chest cavity when the operator is in a situation where the environment is less then ideal (eg, inside a vessel where the vessel is earthed to the welder return lead, the operator is sweating due to poor air circulation and wearing protective clothing that promotes sweating). The operator may hold the hand piece between forearm and chest to remove a glove to allow him to pick up a rod. While doing this he may lean back against earthed steel behind him. Current may then flow from the front of the chest through to the material he is leaning against causing ventricular fibrillation and possible death if assistance is not immediate.

What has been identified is that the effects of ventricular fibrillation are not always immediate to the person, and irregularity of the heart beat can be occurring for up to days with the person not being aware.

It is to be noted that there are no known instances of death in Australia by electrocution from a DC welder but a significant number from AC welders. The likelyhood of ventricular fibrillation from DC is relatively remote evidently.

Now consider EV's and accidents where wet.

Yes, asthma is very serious, as well as allergies and a host of other problems that might be aggravated by mold toxins and byproducts of metabolism. There will be a tremendous amount of work to do finding candidates, determining protocols, documenting the slightest details, and so on.

Perhaps the strongest indication may be from individuals themselves. If they tend to leave the program easily, it may not be helping much. However, if they give a strong response they want to continue, maybe there is something helping them.

A great deal will rest on the design of experiments and procedures to help determine if there are any reactions, and how to measure these things. I certainly don't know much about this where people are involved, and will have a lot to learn. But where to start?

Regards,

Mike Monett

A friend of mine had a pet rabbit that used to regularly bite through live 240V Mains cables to lamps etc. and managed to survive.

-Mike

Oh, I knew the approximate AC voltages already. I was just checking your wimp-factor, and it looks like I knew that pretty well, too.

John

What a group of "electronics designers"! Don't know how much voltage it would take to tickle, and afraid to find out.

Mighty fine bunch of typists, though.

John

Why don't you take your own bait and see how much AC you can take from arm to arm, John. What say you start at 85 volt AC and work up. Also ensure maximum contact surface area for the electrodes and also use a conductive paste. After all you are not assessing body resistance, etc, but determining the maximum current flow that your torso is capable of flowing without suffering ventricular fibrillation. If you don't report back we can all hold a wake for you.

When I was a kid the tongue test for PP3 batteries was very common, but I abandoned this method after discovering that a loaded test with a multimeter proved that the strength of the "tongue-tingle" was a very unreliable test of a battery's state of charge.

What the heck is wrong with you people? This thread is about how much

Keep on typing, folks; it suits you.

John

Been following this thread, and decided to do this experiment. I connected a DMM to one lead of a 9V battery, and did the "tongue test". Battery, meter, and tongue form a simple circuit loop. Here's what I found:

With an old, standard 9V battery (7V open circuit voltage), I get

In both cases, you get that uncomfortable-but-bearable tingle.

Mark

Is all that stuff about mould toxins for real? - The mental case in the flat above went through a phase of repeatedly breaking the water pipe and flooding me out about a decade ago, the flat still has a smell of mould that I can just about mask with plug-in air fresheners in every room, and my health has been deteriorating for years!

Do a search for Nazi archived data - they were expert at using just enough electricity to torture without killing!

I wonder if the I:V graph of a human tongue (or skin) is nonlinear. I suspect so.

John

Do a search? Right, more typing. In the words of another Nazi,

"One experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions."

- Wernher von Braun

What is this fascination you have with excrement?

John

Ian,

If you smell mold, get it fixed or move immediately. Yes, all the stuff you have read is true. The problem is you don't realize the damage it is doing until it is to late. That's what happened to me.

While I was living at 175 Greenbank Rd in Ottawa, my neighbour was living in a house with a similar mold problem next door at 173 Greenbank. Both of us were in excellent health before living there. She now has a serious heart problem where nothing was wrong before, and I haven't heard from her in years so she may have died. The decline in her health was extremely dramatic and very serious.

The lady that moved into my old house had an infant girl. She became constantly ill with all kinds of problems, and the mother started having headaches, the same as me. I do not know what happened to her either.

Air freshners should be outlawed. They do not solve the root problem. Get the mold problem fixed right away, or leave. Immediately.

This is the most important task in front of you right now. Once you lose your health, you can never get it back.

Regards,

Mike Monett

The damage is already done - and the chances of proving enough to win compensation is a real no hoper!