200V at 10mA

Aug 21, 2024 Last reply: 1 year ago 13 Replies

Is there an off the shelf part I can use for the transformer in this?



It's based on a design someone else posted in this group a long time ago (maybe 10 years ago by now). I can't remember the name of that individual.



Watch out for wrapped lines and character encoding issues for L1, C3, C5 If it doesn't simulate L1 likely has a u symbol issue. If it doesn't open, line wraps need to be fixed.


Version 4 SHEET 1 3064 680 WIRE 1264 -432 -64 -432 WIRE 1392 -432 1344 -432 WIRE 1488 -432 1392 -432 WIRE 1712 -432 1568 -432 WIRE 1968 -432 1776 -432 WIRE 2048 -432 1968 -432 WIRE 2144 -432 2048 -432 WIRE 2176 -432 2144 -432 WIRE -64 -352 -64 -432 WIRE 48 -352 -64 -352 WIRE 400 -352 48 -352 WIRE 672 -352 400 -352 WIRE 928 -352 672 -352 WIRE 1152 -352 928 -352 WIRE 2304 -352 1152 -352 WIRE 2432 -352 2304 -352 WIRE 2560 -352 2432 -352 WIRE 2176 -320 2176 -432 WIRE 400 -304 400 -352 WIRE 672 -304 672 -352 WIRE 928 -304 928 -352 WIRE 1152 -304 1152 -352 WIRE 2048 -304 2048 -432 WIRE 2304 -304 2304 -352 WIRE 2432 -304 2432 -352 WIRE 2560 -304 2560 -352 WIRE 48 -272 48 -352 WIRE 2176 -224 2176 -240 WIRE 400 -192 400 -224 WIRE 400 -192 304 -192 WIRE 496 -192 400 -192 WIRE 928 -192 928 -224 WIRE 928 -192 832 -192 WIRE 1024 -192 928 -192 WIRE 304 -160 304 -192 WIRE 496 -160 496 -192 WIRE 832 -160 832 -192 WIRE 1024 -160 1024 -192 WIRE 48 -112 48 -192 WIRE 160 -112 48 -112 WIRE 240 -112 160 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192 1232 144 WIRE 1280 192 1232 192 WIRE 1344 192 1280 192 WIRE 1840 192 1840 112 WIRE 2304 192 2304 160 WIRE 2368 192 2304 192 WIRE 2432 192 2432 160 WIRE 2432 192 2368 192 WIRE -64 208 -64 -352 WIRE 1392 240 1392 208 WIRE 1440 240 1392 240 WIRE 1568 240 1440 240 WIRE 1680 240 1648 240 WIRE 1744 240 1744 160 WIRE 1744 240 1680 240 WIRE 1776 240 1744 240 WIRE 2560 240 2560 112 WIRE 2560 240 2480 240 WIRE 48 256 48 -112 WIRE 160 256 160 224 WIRE 304 256 304 176 WIRE 624 272 624 208 WIRE 688 272 688 -32 WIRE 832 272 832 192 WIRE 1392 272 1392 240 WIRE 1488 272 1488 128 WIRE 2176 272 2176 112 WIRE 2368 272 2368 192 WIRE 1680 288 1680 240 WIRE 1968 288 1968 -432 WIRE 2480 288 2480 240 WIRE 2560 288 2560 240 WIRE 1840 304 1840 288 WIRE -64 400 -64 288 WIRE -64 400 -96 400 WIRE 48 400 48 336 WIRE 48 400 -64 400 WIRE 160 400 160 336 WIRE 160 400 48 400 WIRE 304 400 304 336 WIRE 304 400 160 400 WIRE 496 400 496 -64 WIRE 496 400 304 400 WIRE 624 400 624 352 WIRE 624 400 496 400 WIRE 688 400 688 336 WIRE 688 400 624 400 WIRE 832 400 832 352 WIRE 832 400 688 400 WIRE 1024 400 1024 -64 WIRE 1024 400 832 400 WIRE 1152 400 1152 240 WIRE 1152 400 1024 400 WIRE 1392 400 1392 352 WIRE 1392 400 1152 400 WIRE 1488 400 1488 352 WIRE 1488 400 1392 400 WIRE 1680 400 1680 352 WIRE 1680 400 1488 400 WIRE 1840 400 1840 384 WIRE 1840 400 1680 400 WIRE 1968 400 1968 352 WIRE 1968 400 1840 400 WIRE 2048 400 2048 -224 WIRE 2048 400 1968 400 WIRE 2176 400 2176 352 WIRE 2176 400 2048 400 WIRE 2368 400 2368 352 WIRE 2368 400 2176 400 WIRE 2480 400 2480 352 WIRE 2480 400 2368 400 WIRE 2560 400 2560 352 WIRE 2560 400 2480 400 WIRE -96 416 -96 400 FLAG -96 416 0 FLAG 912 192 pwm FLAG 736 -112 ramp FLAG 1440 240 isns FLAG 1424 16 sw FLAG 2208 112 vfb FLAG 2144 -432 vout FLAG 1280 192 gate FLAG 2528 112 ref FLAG 2400 -112 vc SYMBOL voltage -64 192 R0 WINDOW 0 -74 28 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -71 66 Left 2 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value 12 SYMBOL npn 224 128 M0 WINDOW 0 -25 73 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -46 115 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q1 SYMATTR Value 2N2222 SYMBOL res 144 240 R0 WINDOW 0 38 49 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R4 SYMATTR Value 100 SYMBOL res 32 -288 R0 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 10k SYMBOL res 32 240 R0 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 10k SYMBOL res 144 0 R0 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 10k SYMBOL pnp 240 -64 M180 WINDOW 0 52 62 Left 2 WINDOW 3 53 35 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q2 SYMATTR Value 2N2907 SYMBOL pnp 560 -64 R180 WINDOW 0 65 64 Left 2 WINDOW 3 57 35 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q3 SYMATTR Value 2N2907 SYMBOL res 384 -320 R0 SYMATTR InstName R6 SYMATTR Value 1k SYMBOL res 288 240 R0 SYMATTR InstName R5 SYMATTR Value 220 SYMBOL npn 560 112 R0 WINDOW 0 -25 70 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -40 112 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q4 SYMATTR Value 2N2222 SYMBOL res 608 256 R0 WINDOW 0 -41 33 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -38 63 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R7 SYMATTR Value 10 SYMBOL res 656 -320 R0 SYMATTR InstName R8 SYMATTR Value 10k SYMBOL cap 672 272 R0 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 2n2 SYMBOL ind2 1248 -416 R270 WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 4 56 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName L1 SYMATTR Value 50µ SYMATTR Type ind SYMBOL pnp 768 -64 M180 WINDOW 0 51 60 Left 2 WINDOW 3 49 33 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q5 SYMATTR Value 2N2907 SYMBOL pnp 1088 -64 R180 WINDOW 0 53 67 Left 2 WINDOW 3 51 34 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q6 SYMATTR Value 2N2907 SYMBOL res 912 -320 R0 SYMATTR InstName R10 SYMATTR Value 1k SYMBOL res 816 256 R0 SYMATTR InstName R9 SYMATTR Value 220 SYMBOL npn 1088 144 R0 WINDOW 0 48 27 Left 2 WINDOW 3 47 57 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q7 SYMATTR Value 2N2222 SYMBOL res 1136 -320 R0 SYMATTR InstName R11 SYMATTR Value 1k SYMBOL nmos 1344 112 R0 WINDOW 0 59 35 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -102 116 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName M1 SYMATTR Value IRLML0040 SYMBOL ind2 1472 -416 R270 WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 4 56 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName L2 SYMATTR Value 5m SYMATTR Type ind SYMBOL cap 1472 64 R0 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value 330p SYMBOL res 1376 256 R0 WINDOW 0 -54 44 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -57 74 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R13 SYMATTR Value 0.39 SYMBOL res 1472 256 R0 WINDOW 0 36 46 Left 2 WINDOW 3 35 78 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R14 SYMATTR Value 470 SYMBOL cap 1952 288 R0 SYMATTR InstName C3 SYMATTR Value 1µ SYMATTR SpiceLine V=250 Irms=0 Rser=0.0086 Lser=1.1n mfg="Würth Elektronik" pn="885342214002 WCAP-CSMH 2220" type="X7R" SYMBOL res 1664 224 R90 WINDOW 0 -5 52 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R15 SYMATTR Value 1k SYMBOL npn 1776 192 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q8 SYMATTR Value 2N2222 SYMBOL pnp 1808 160 R180 WINDOW 0 63 66 Left 2 WINDOW 3 57 33 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q9 SYMATTR Value 2N2907 SYMBOL res 1824 288 R0 SYMATTR InstName R17 SYMATTR Value 220 SYMBOL res 1824 -32 R0 SYMATTR InstName R16 SYMATTR Value 1k SYMBOL diode 1712 -416 R270 WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName D1 SYMATTR Value RFU01SM4S SYMBOL res 2160 256 R0 SYMATTR InstName R22 SYMATTR Value 22k SYMBOL npn 2240 64 R0 WINDOW 0 -33 102 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -47 134 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q10 SYMATTR Value 2N2222 SYMBOL res 2288 -320 R0 WINDOW 0 -55 37 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -54 76 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R23 SYMATTR Value 10k SYMBOL npn 2496 64 M0 WINDOW 0 70 27 Left 2 WINDOW 3 46 62 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName Q11 SYMATTR Value 2N2222 SYMBOL res 2352 256 R0 SYMATTR InstName R24 SYMATTR Value 4.7k SYMBOL res 2416 -320 R0 SYMATTR InstName R25 SYMATTR Value 22k SYMBOL res 2544 -320 R0 SYMATTR InstName R26 SYMATTR Value 10k SYMBOL zener 2576 352 R180 WINDOW 0 -27 70 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -68 3 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName D2 SYMATTR Value 1N750 SYMATTR Description Diode SYMATTR Type diode SYMBOL res 1216 48 R0 SYMATTR InstName R12 SYMATTR Value 100 SYMBOL res 2160 -336 R0 WINDOW 0 -58 37 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -64 71 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R19 SYMATTR Value 330k SYMBOL res 2160 -240 R0 WINDOW 0 -58 37 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -64 71 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R20 SYMATTR Value 330k SYMBOL res 2160 -64 R0 WINDOW 0 -58 37 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -63 70 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R21 SYMATTR Value 330k SYMBOL cap 1664 288 R0 SYMATTR InstName C4 SYMATTR Value 100p SYMBOL res 2032 -320 R0 WINDOW 0 -50 33 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -49 66 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R18 SYMATTR Value 18k SYMBOL cap 2464 288 R0 SYMATTR InstName C5 SYMATTR Value 0.1µ SYMATTR SpiceLine V=25 Irms=0 Rser=0.037 Lser=674p mfg="Würth Elektronik" pn="885012210008 WCAP-CSGP 1812" type="X7R" TEXT -64 432 Left 2 !.tran 0 10m 0m startup TEXT 1352 -464 Left 2 !K1 L1 L2 1 TEXT -96 480 Left 2 ;Input voltage range 11V to 15V TEXT 488 -480 Left 2 ;12V to 200V low power converter TEXT 2192 -456 Left 2 ;200V at usually not more than 10mA\nAbsolute maximum 15mA



If you want to stick with that way-over-complex design you could look into versapac 6 windings coupled inductors.

I would not even try that circuit. Better to redesign to use either a single inductor or a dual coupled inductor like DRQ127 series. if necessary follow with a cockcroft-walton multiplying rectifier.

UC3843 control chip would be ideal, cheap, reliable, easy to use, multisourced.

piglet

I like the auto-flyback circuit, flyback drive into the center tap of a DRQ127. Then maybe a voltage doubler to harvest the p-p swing.

And LTC3803 rocks.

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Very slick part but LT/AD usually too luxurious pricewise for me. The UC384x is slow and old but tenth the cost. I like the 5V reference output can often support a low power MCU etc

Gets 'singular matrix node error' on Q1e here.

Discrete circuits are fun but unappreciated.

RL

True about the price. Our stuff isn't very price sensitive.

TI has some great little switchers lately. We're paying 21 cents for the TPS562208DDCT spread-spectrum synchronous buck switcher.

I wonder if it would be practical to use one of those to make the

12/200 volt converter. That's just possible. Let's play with that idea.

Unfortunately, it's a nuisance to plug the TI models into LT Spice.

I've seen that before but not with this circuit. Likely there's some copy/paste issue in the file. Make sure L1 is 50u and L2 is 5m

These use a MAX1771 controller for the high voltage output:

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Somewhat surprising as that chip is stupid expensive, from US distributors anyway.

Thanks piglet I will.

Perhaps I should have mentioned that it's not for volume production and I already have suitable parts except a transformer. Having to buy chips would cost more and there's no education in wondering what's inside a chip.

I'm sure there are plenty of ways to turn 12V into 200V.

Looks similar to the requirements I had for my nixie clock.

I used parts I already had: LT3757 as flyback controller, and a Pulse PA1137 power-over-ethernet transformer (used backwards). Works fine.

cu Michael

$0.15 for the first 60V, then the rest of the way with doublers

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Interesting little device. Thanks.

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There's a more elegant solution to that problem that was discussed here a few yeas ago.

sci-hub.do/10.1109/tpel.2007.909192

Abramovitz, A., & Smedley, K. (2007). A Resonant DC–DC Transformer With Zero Current Ripple. IEEE Transactions on Power Electronics, 22(6),

2344–2351. doi:10.1109/tpel.2007.909192

It's essentially the Baxandall class-D oscillator with two extra windings on the feed inductor. The paper talks about integrating all the windings on single - carefully gapped - I-E core, but using two cores gives you an easily designed way of getting to the same advantage.

At the time I posted an LTSpice simulation that made the point. The output wasn't entirely ripple-free, in that there were switching transients which would have had to have been filtered out, but that needed a much smaller R,L and C values than you'd have need to get rid of the switching frequency components.

It won't be attractive if you have a pathological fear of transformers or an aversion to winding them yourself a or finding a nearby transformer winding shop to wind a few of them for you.

For volume production you'd use printed windings, but thye need a specialist supplier too.

Thanks I'll have a look. I haven't done much for the past two days due to a touch of Covid.

I have no fear of transformers or winding them myself but I'd have to admit that some of the work I could do 40 years ago might be best avoided now.

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