Is this water in the toroidal trafo ?

Chris Jones wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

The main thing is that not all posts propagate to all people, so anything that looks like a possibility they didn't can be frustrating. Acknowleging one shows a chain of events that rules that problem out neatly.

Fair. My point was a sort of thin joke really, on the face of it a small Peltier is actually good, it locks down the water in a separate location, avoiding the need to use vacuum to constantly draw vapour out to maintain low pressure. The joke is that to do that with any strong effect, the secondary (entirely unwanted) effect is to cool the entire setup. Although I guess you could pass the hot side waste heat back to the transformer somehow. Pointless complexity, perhaps...

Sometime I ought to get one actually, my old fridge compressor is a tad crude. Thing is, while you might easily put a vaccuum pump into service to dry something in a sealed chamber, it's only easy from the standpoint of pressing into service a bit of kit that is already there. Analogy: It's easy to use a car to get the shopping done, unless you have no car, in which case it's far easier to carry the shopping than to buy the car.

Agreed. I see no problem with 105°C on toroidal transformers. I let it go at 80 because it will work, and it's just below a much lower risk standard rating. The only part I can imagine might protest at 105°C is the little PVC sheaths on the wire ends. And maybe the sticky tape that stops the outer tape unwinding.

Reply to
Lostgallifreyan
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I think that a small amount of rust on the core is not likely to be a problem. The only thing that I would be concerned about is if the insulation on the wire were to fail, and that can even happen in new transformers.

Once the transformer has been completely dried out, then I think that it will not suffer any significant further deterioration.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Jones

Yes, though sometimes it can be useful to know whether several people agree that something is a good idea. Perhaps I should have take the extra time to explain explicitly that someone had suggested the ideas and that I was agreeing with them, but I didn't think that was necessary because it is plain for all to see where other people posted things first, and I don't pretend otherwise.

What you say here makes sense to me, though I did misunderstand some of your previous posts on the subject, for example, you wrote: "Vacuum and cold are closely related, so you could try a peltier. :) Best not though, far too awkward, and the cold trap will just cool your box..."

I could not quite understand what you were suggesting with the peltier. That is why I made the point that I did not think freezing would be a good cure for the moisture. Your suggestion of using cooling as a way of testing whether the transformer had been dried out did sound sensible to me.

I realise that using a vacuum had already been suggested. The OP then said : "Problem is, i do not have a vacuum box." so I suggested a couple of ways of obtaining vacuum pumps.

Also I don't think anyone else has commented on the relative merits of drying at say 40 degrees C and drying at say 105 degrees C. The vapour pressure of water is rather different in the two cases and so the time required would be rather different. If anyone has tried this and has experiences to share then that would be useful.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Jones

I put a kilogram granulated sugar without the bag in a plastic bag. With a hygrometer, which pointed to 90 % humidity at startup. Not much air in the bag. All at room temperature.

After 2 days the hygrometer still points at 90 % humidity.

Does not seem to work.

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Reply to
hihihi

hihihi wrote in news:46cbfa14$0$3885$ snipped-for-privacy@news.wanadoo.nl:

Ok. Was just a thought... A paper bag or dish full of salt might work better. I just didn't want to recommend salt as it's very corrosive if any gets onto metal.

Sugar (or salt) will definitely take up water, but the best way is to heat the transformers to drive off water and let unrestricted airflow carry it away. Nothing is going to work better than that. One single exception might be viable if you have it, a portable dehumidifier. If you have that you can do this in a closed cupboard with no source of heat other than the dehumidifier itself. That can dry a pair of wet jeans overnight so it should be useful.

Reply to
Lostgallifreyan

My thoughts exactly :-)

The sun has not shown itself for days, and is not expected to the coming days.

I am now looking for a suitable secondhand mini oven at ebay and such places.

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Reply to
hihihi

hihihi wrote in news:46cc1fae$0$12207$ snipped-for-privacy@news.wanadoo.nl:

Look for a laboratory block heater with temperature control (Labline, for example), those go for astonishingly low cost at times. I got one for about £15 (most of that was postage), and it's a very useful thing to have.

Reply to
Lostgallifreyan

How about using the sort of silica-gel dessicant beads that are used to dry flowers and (ahem) protect electronic equipment against humidity?

A craft store might be a good place to start looking - look for a product like Flower-Dri (tm) or a competitor. These are small-bead silica-gel dessicants, with some amount of a moisture-indicator added (likely cobalt chloride or something containing it).

The dessicant can be reactivated, once it's saturated with moisture and its indicator loses its blue color, by warming it in a vented electric oven for a few hours (temperatures from 240 to 325 degrees F seem to be used for this).

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Reply to
Dave Platt

How about this heat method :

Put a 220 volt lightbulb of X watt in series with the primary side of the trafo. To prevent high short circuit current, in case of disaster.

Then put a load on the secondary side.

Balance the wattage of the light bulb and the secondary side load so that the trafo gets nicely warm, like 80 degree Celsius.

Put a old smoke detector above the trafo, just in case it starts smoking.

This way the trafo will dry itself :-))

Are there any problems with this method ?

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hihihi is the username, wanadoo the domain, nl the country.
Reply to
hihihi

How about this :

Put no load on the secondary side. Short circuit the secondary side with a ampere meter, to monitor the secondary current. And then adjust the wattage of the lightbulb in series with the primary side, to get the maximum secondary current.

Trafo A is secondary 28.7 volt 3 ampere.

220/28.7=7.66 3/7.66= 0.391 ampere primary side. 220 x 0.391 = 86 watt lightbulb in series with primary side ???? In the real world this would be a 75 watt lightbulb ?

Trafo B is 34.6 volt 3 ampere.

220 / 34.6 = 6.358 3 / 6.358 = 0.471 ampere primary side. 220 x 0.471 = 103 watt lightbulb in series with primary side ? In the real world this would be a 100 watt lightbulb ?

Trafo C is 22.2 volt 4 ampere

220 / 22.2 = 9.9 4 / 9.9 = 0.404 ampere primary side. 220 x 0.404 = 88 watt lightbulb in series with primary side ? In the real world this would be a 75 watt lightbulb ?

Any problems with peak current when switching ON ? Any problems other with this ?

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hihihi is the username, wanadoo the domain, nl the country.
Reply to
hihihi

You idea sounds sensible, but the wattage of the lightbulbs might need some experimentation because the filament resistance is not constant with different supply voltages, and there will be some voltage dropped across the transformer.

You could get the same amount of heat into the transformer windings without having to dissipate as much heat in the light bulb if you start with a lower AC supply voltage (from another transformer), and then limit the current using a low voltage light bulb (e.g. from a car indicator light), adjusted to get the same current as you already calculated above.

E.g. of you need 0.471 Amperes, probably you only need less than 20 Volts across the primary with the secondary shorted in order to get this much current to flow. You would have to measure and adjust the series resistance.

If you intention is to make the transformer get quite warm then you might have to exceed the rated current, which will be safe to do as long as you monitor the temperature carefully.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Jones

I just did a experiment.

200 Watt 220 volt lightbulb in series with primary side. Gives 43.3 volt on primary connectors. And 4.6 ampere secondary, this is 50 percent overload. Temperature went up to 60 degree Celsius and was still rising. It is late, 01:00 at night, so i ended the experiment.

I will think about it, and see if i have suitable trafo.

What about this idea. I have 4 trafos of 34.6 Volt 3 ampere. All have to be dried. What if i connect the secondary of the first trafo to the secondary of the second trafo ? And then the primary of the second trafo to the primary of the third trafo. Then the secondary of the third trafo to the secondary of the fourth trafo. And the short circuit the primary of the fourth trafo. Oeps.. :-) Is this crazy ? To unpredictable ? Would be nice if it worked, could dry 4 trafos at the same time.

Yes, good suggestion.

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hihihi is the username, wanadoo the domain, nl the country.
Reply to
hihihi

I see microwave ovens thrown out often. Get one free, put a bulb inside of it and let the bulb supply the heat. You could even use a dimmer on the bulb and put a small oven thermomenter inside to control the max. temperature.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

Why not just put the right size light bulb (aka heater) under the thing you want to heat.

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Reply to
Hal Murray

Toke me some time to realize, you mean, do NOT switch the microwave ON.

A not working microwave as heat isolating box, good idea.

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hihihi is the username, wanadoo the domain, nl the country.
Reply to
hihihi

Can the inside of a microwave take 80 degree Celsius for many hours ? No melting roof panel ?

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hihihi is the username, wanadoo the domain, nl the country.
Reply to
hihihi

hihihi wrote in news:46cd3c81$0$24496$ snipped-for-privacy@news.wanadoo.nl:

Don't bother, you'd have to get the water out, and the only practical way is to alter the oven so the fan works, but not the magnetron drive.

I think your self-heating idea is good. Chain primaries together, four or more in series, and short each secondary separately. That way you won't have to calculate loads, if the primaries are enough in number to drop the input voltage for each transformer, the right proportions of energy per transformer will be easy enough to get even if different types are there in one chain. Try at least 4 primaries in series so the temperature rise isn't too fast, and set a temperature regulated switch to open the supply circuit if they get too warm, if you're not going to watch over them. But watch over them anyway till you're very sure what response you're getting. Monitor the smallest transformer's temperature.

Reply to
Lostgallifreyan

Lostgallifreyan wrote in news:Xns9995627CA59ABzoodlewurdle@140.99.99.130:

NO. Scratch that... Forgot to consider that there would be different primary currents! It will work if each chain has the same type though.

Reply to
Lostgallifreyan

No problem - 80 C is way lower than it can take.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

"Don't bother" ?? How much stuff have you experimented with this way to arrive at that conclusion? For the record, I've done it many times - although I've never dried toroids.

As to running the fan if he wants to - we're talking about a microwave oven that was thrown out. What's the problem with modifying that?

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

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