Wanted: LM-709 (Spice model) National Op-Amp

Looking for a spice model or subcircuit netlist for the LM709 from National semiconductor. I asked intusoft, cause they have a free model service. I bought their entry level software ICAP/4 8.3.3 from a dealer purchased in 2000. For reasons I won't mention, I was denied the request from their sales department.

I was going to email National, but from what I read in Bob's book "Troubleshooting Analog circuits" he doesn't like S.P.I.C.E. and for good reason...........:)

Any help on this request would be great....

Thanks Neil

Reply to
Neil
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So why is it that Intusoft won't support you, and why is it that you haven't E-mailed National?

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Why?

Its a 30 year old part. No one in their right mind is going to use it.

You have my sympathies.

He has no good reason. Spice is absolutely indispensable in analogue ic design.

Those that don't use spice for general analogue design have simply missed the boat. Times have moved on, unfortunately, it seems some haven't.

Kevin Aylward snipped-for-privacy@anasoft.co.uk

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SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Reply to
Kevin Aylward

ha ha...ha, boat huh? you mean train don't you? Looks like your going have to ask him(Robert Pease, National Engineer),he has spoke openly about his views on spice at seminars accross United States, I read some of his articles, I tend to agree. May be you should read the book I mentioned in my POST, and make your own opinion. I use to trust spice too.......... I own a few of the SPICE software programs, it's great tool for learning, however......I'm sticking my original POST the search for the model LM709

Yes, Kevin the part I admit is obselete, but believe it or not have a few of these in my junk drawer in the T0-99 Pkge. Why ? Analog Enginners love this kind of stuff, I very fond analog myself, I perfer it over digital. Digital takes all the work, and fun out of Electronics!!

Neil

Reply to
Neil

Perhaps it was too subtle for you, so I'll highlight it for you.

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Kevin is not only an engineer; not only a SPICE user; he in fact PRODUCES a well-known variant.

Because he *maintains* it (read: bug reports), he is very aware of the shortcommings of it and he tweaks his software to adapt to those as they arise.

Reply to
JeffM

Well..........The sales manager says the software is too old and won't work. Funny I thought most models work in SPICE 3F5, I don't understand that either. Then the issue with the serial number, they might not have a record of it anymore, but yet I talked to Bill several times in California through email, and he always gave me support. The dealer where I bought it from went out of business, so now Intusoft has cut them loose, sort of speak, and ALL ICAP/4 products they sold to their customers are not supported anymore.

I suspect the company is under new management, a real problem especially if you purchased your software more then 5 years ago, I just work with what I have, it's good enough for me!!

I won't email National for the SPICE model cause the part is obsolete, but you can still buy them if your willing pay $10 bucks per amp. I remember 4 years ago oilfield compaines were paying upwards of over $30 dollars for a Harris HA-2520 Op-Amp..............very rare, hard to find, and I have 2 in my parts drawer...........:)

Neil

Neil

Reply to
Neil

True..............It seems SPICE has a world all of it's own in analogue design, but one must follow the Rules of spice, and adapt.. Convergence is very fragile...................

Neil

Reply to
Neil

Why don't you just enter the equivalent schematic from the data sheet (page 3 of the pdf - National 1995)? It only has thirteen each of transistors and resistors (wouldn't take more than about thirty minutes to get something up and running).

And why aren't you using Linear Technology's LTspice? It's free, unlimited, completely general purpose and is faster and works better than either Pspice or ICAP.

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Before I found LTspice I was a die-hard fan of Pspice (I have no affiliation with Linear Technology, btw).

Reply to
analog

From what I can recall of Bob's arguments against spice, was the same as someone saying they do not like Word Processors, becuase they read a badly written novel. If one uses SPICE incorrectly, then one gets bogus results, if one understands it's limits and uses it correctly, then it is a valuable tool.

Regards Anton Erasmus

Reply to
Anton Erasmus

Oh, it was a little more than that.

What he said finally drove him up a wall was he was trying to get a circuit to converge with great frustration and IIRC he came in one morning and the previous night's run had converged.

When he examined the netlist he found that he had (during the troubleshooting effort) left in a couple of components (a resistor and capacitor?) connected to ground with the other ends disconnected. They should have had no effect on a real circuit.

That made it converge. Taking the components completely out of the circuit caused the original non-convergence.

That kind of non-real World physical behavior, he calls it "lying", drives him crazy.

Knowing a little bit about the algorithms of Spice I can perhaps guess that leaving the circuit components in caused the circuit's Admittance Matrix to be assembled in a not so ill conditioned State. But it would only be a guess.

Robert

Reply to
Robert

Yes, I know all about Bob. He is misguided on this.

I have made my own opinion. Its based on being both an analogue ic and board designer for er.. some years, and knowing how its actually done in practise.

I use to

Of courses Spice has its limitations, just as a screwdriver does. However, this doesn't mean that Spice shouldn't be used as the fundamental design tool for analogue design.

You are obviously a newbie on this so I'll point out one or two issues. Lets take analogue ic design. How do you propose to design a 1000 transistor circuit? A 10,000 transistor circuit? What's the fab cost? Turn around time? You reckon that you can solve the equations by hand?

This is the deal. 10,000s of analogue ic designers, that is *all* of them use spice as *the* number one de-facto method of designing circuits. Period. It cant be any other way, today. Its simply not possible to reliably design such circuits without spice. The designs are two large and complex and cost too way much to fab. Its typically a 40 hour day, 5 days a week of solid simulation. This *is* the way it is. Its quite common for people to design large analogue circuits, and have them work 100% with first pass silicon. Some even get a $50k bonus on that condition. Those that suggest that Spice is a side line tool, are on a par to claiming that a Bible is just a superficial add-on to the x-tian religion. They are quite oblivious to what practising analogue ic designers use as a matter of course on a daily basis.

For the most part, designs don't work because of simply neglecting to do a specific simulation, rather then the simulation itself not reflecting real life. Its hard to think of all operating conditions. However, most spices have various feature that allow worst case analysis to be performed and other such multyruns. One might typically do 10,000 variations of a circuit. How do you propose to do such checking in the real world?

Spice is like anything else, GIGO. Realistically, there is no alternative. Even a 1 transistor circuit has no exact analytical solution. The key is getting good models, and understanding the model failings and compensating for that in the design.

Of course designs have to be physically checked on the bench, but if you do know what you are doing this checking can be very, very, minimal. Down to just producing a data sheet for example. I am sure Jim T. could give us a few examples of right first time:-)

Kevin Aylward snipped-for-privacy@anasoft.co.uk

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SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

Reply to
Kevin Aylward

I think a great many (most ?) problems with SPICE and other simulation programs in general are actually due to problems of the "Floating Point" data type. AFAIK the total reason for being of the floating point data type was to get a reasonable range and precision using as little memory as possible. Today memory is not a problem anymore, and one can use a fixed point number format with the desired range and precision necessary for any simulation. A typical construct in many simulations are:

(x0-x1)/k where x0 and x1 are almost equal. This causes problems in floating point. If x0 an x1 are say 1.0 and 1.0001 then it is not a problem. If it is 1000000000.0 and 1000000000.0001, then it bombs out.

I personally think that with todays systems, the use of floating point should be banned, and in stead large fixed point numbers should be used. The only disadvantage compared to floating point is that it uses more memory. (And the little problem that almost no currently used languages supports them as standard)

Regards Anton Erasmus

Reply to
Anton Erasmus

Neil wrote: : Well..........The sales manager says the software is too old and won't : work.

[. . . .]

: I suspect the company is under new management, a real problem : especially if you purchased your software more then 5 years ago, I just : work with what I have, it's good enough for me!!

Heh. Another reason why open-source EDA tools are preferable over secret-source ones: No obsolescence. In particular, no obsolescence based upon stupid political or marketing considerations.

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SDB

Reply to
Stuart Brorson

Robert wrote: : What he said finally drove him up a wall was he was trying to get a circuit : to converge with great frustration and IIRC he came in one morning and the : previous night's run had converged.

: When he examined the netlist he found that he had (during the : troubleshooting effort) left in a couple of components (a resistor and : capacitor?) connected to ground with the other ends disconnected. They : should have had no effect on a real circuit.

: That made it converge. Taking the components completely out of the circuit : caused the original non-convergence.

: That kind of non-real World physical behavior, he calls it "lying", drives : him crazy.

I'll add my $0.02 here; perhaps it is useful.

On the SPICE vs. no SPICE debate: Designing modern analog ICs [1] would be well-neigh impossible without SPICE due to modern circuit size and complexity. Other posters have already pointed this out. Also, when designing an IC, you control nearly all parameters of the components you use, and you have highly accurate models of your transistors available. Therefore, SPICE can do a good job predicting circuit behavior.

Designing analog boards, on the other hand, is different. Most of the time, the models you have at your disposal are vendor macromodels, which are not device-level models of the actual components you use. Rather, they are idealizations which attempt to model the important features of the device's performance in its operating region. Vendors won't give you real device-level models of their components because then you could reverse-engineer their circuits. Therefore, the SPICE models you use in board design are generally useful, but are not totally accurate.

Also, when designing boards, stray capacitances are not as well understood or controlled as they are when designing ICs. (Perhaps if you purchase a $100K tool from one of the big EDA vendors you can extract the strays from a PCB layout, but I have never seen that done in real life.) Therefore, the fabbed board will always act differently from any SPICE simulation, particularly if your circuit is sensitive to strays.

Therefore, for IC design, SPICE is indespensible. For board design SPICE provides good guidance, but isn't the last word in predicting circuit performance.

As for the issue of convergence mentioned above: My experience is that if your SPICE simulation behaves strangely or doesn't converge, it is likely that you have a fundamental problem with your circuit. When a circuit doesn't converge, besides looking for floating nodes, I always examine my circuit thoroughly looking for subtle mess-ups such as two different current sources in series, or two different voltage sources in parallel. More often than not, I find that I have committed some kind of error.

Stuart

[1] Note bene: I am not an IC designer, so others can speak with more authority about this. Nonetheless, my point is general enough to not require detailed, expierential knowledge of IC design.
Reply to
Stuart Brorson
[snip]

Though Bob Pease is a fellow classmate of mine at MIT, he is very often quite full of it... a good portion of what he propounds is just plain urban legend BS.

The way he typically spouts I often wonder if he's ever used Spice at all.

A good simulator will report floating nodes.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

"Neil" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news: snipped-for-privacy@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Hello Neil,

If you look with Google (uA709 spice) then you will find two sources for a model. One is in the library file "opamp.lib" from Microsim/Cadence. It's a very old behavioral model and I have not tested it. I don't have a PSPICE license and so I don't would use it.

In this "summer2000.pdf" is a netlist of a test circuit with the LM/uA709. It's nothing else than an exact copy of the schematic of the LM709 from National's datasheet.

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I used this datasheet and made my own model. I would be interested to get some feedback about the parameters of my "invented" transistor models. I have used the reference designators from the the datasheet to make it easier to modify the model if necessary. THe model agrees very well with the performance of the datasheet. It's a free model. Feel free to use/copy/modify.

I have also made a complete example for LTspice with a schematic based on a nice symbol and a model file. Additionally I have made a hierachical block design which allows to probe down the hierarchy (in the schematic) to every node of the LM709.

LTspice is free SPICE from

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.
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The LTspice user group:

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Download the files from here within the Yahoo group.

Files > Lib > LM709_uA709

Best regards, Helmut

  • LM709 SPICE Model
  • Datasheet:
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  • Helmut Sennewald
*
  • Input compensation B (8) --------------------\
  • Input compensation A (1) -----------------\ |
  • Output compensation (5) --------------\ | |
  • Output (6) -----------------------\ | | |
  • Negative supply (4) ----------\ | | | |
  • Positive supply (7) -------\ | | | | |
  • Inverting input (2) ----\ | | | | | |
  • non-inverting input(3) | | | | | | |
  • | | | | | | | | ..subckt LM709 In+ In- V+ V- OUT COMP A B Q7 v+ N001 N005 0 NPN1 R5 v+ N001 10k Q3 N001 N006 N003 0 NPN1 Q4 N001 N003 N002 0 NPN1 R1 N005 N006 25k R3 N003 N004 3k Q15 N004 N004 N002 0 NPN1 R2 N005 A 25k Q2 A in- N007 0 NPN1 Q1 N006 in+ N007 0 NPN1 Q5 B A N009 0 NPN1 R4 N009 N004 3k Q6 B N009 N002 0 NPN1 R6 v+ B 10k R8 N002 N011 3.6k R10 N011 N010 10k Q10 N010 N010 V- 0 NPN1 Q11 N007 N010 N008 0 NPN1 R11 N008 V- 2.4k R9 N012 N011 10k Q8 v+ B N013 0 NPN1 R7 N013 N012 1k Q9 comp N002 N012 0 PNP1 R13 N014 V- 75 R12 comp N014 10k Q12 N015 comp N014 0 NPN1 Q13 V- N015 out 0 PNP1 Q14 v+ N015 out 0 NPN1 R14 v+ N015 20k R15 N012 out 30k ..MODEL NPN1 NPN (BF=100 VAF=50 RB=100 CJE=4P CJC=2P CJS=2P TF=0.5N TR=10N) ..MODEL PNP1 PNP (BF=15 VAF=50 CJC=4P CJE=8P RB=100 TF=20N TR=200N) ..ends LM709
Reply to
Helmut Sennewald

[snip]

Yes your point is general and has nothing to do with what I said.

Two passive components, a resistor and a cap, left in a netlist connected to ground WITH the other end disconnected causes a circuit to converge when without them it does not. Bob went on to say (tongue in cheek?) that perhaps non-functioning components strewn randomly through a design could be an add on Spice convergence feature.

That does not have anything to do with the type of errors you mentioned. And the existence of such a problem points to deeper problems with Spice than you mention.

It is quite possible it was a problem with an early Spice Algorithm in how the numbers were crunched (ill conditioned Matrix were favorite weasel words at one time).

Wouldn't know. Would know that the problem (if it is as I remembered) has nothing to do with the problems you mention.

Robert

Reply to
Robert

Sure. But I don't think he got such simple details wrong. And I don't think he was just making up a story. Possible, but not likely.

Who said he had a good simulator? I imagine it was a company version of Spice from back in the days when they were still working the kinks out. If you want I can dig up the reference from my old copy of his book.

Robert

Reply to
Robert

He castigates Spice to this very day. When we were fellow students at MIT he was a wee bit kooky (charging up flights of stairs like Teddy Roosevelt in "Arsenic and Old Lace")... and he's still kooky.

Have you been to one of his "seminars"? I went to one last year that was here in Phoenix, just to say "Hi". Technical content zero, funny marketing presentation, yes.

His columns seem to have virtually no technical comment anymore, just what vitamins he's taking, and how long he can go without taking a leak ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

I used to do that, now I'm into Post Polio Syndrome :-(

I don't remember if he screamed anything or not, but he sure drew a lot of attention, all dressed out in lederhosen and roaring up the stairs.

I don't get paid :-(

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

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