Protel or ORcad?

depends who's paying... also depends on the support group IMO.. Protels is very active and DXP has some nice features added in SP3.

Simon

This question has been asked thousand times! So don't expect some good out of it...

I believe it depends upon your application. OrCAD is good at simulation whereas Protel is for PCB design.

For as long as I have known Protel they have a poor reputation for bugs and taking an eternity fixing them. Now we hear, yet again, that Altium are trying hard to get it right. Why is this constantly the case with Protel...? The product ain't bargain basement. It's what $8K.....!

Well that isn't hard to figure. IMO OrCAD is a dying product. It's not been healthy since Cadence bought the company. But since OrCAD canned the US dev operation and shipped dev to India it's gone into suspended animation. The Layout product - the old Masstech suite that OrCAD bought way back when is prehistoric by modern standards. Cadence don't even sell this stuff in the US - they have a VAR, EMA doing it.....

Again, the Protel router has been poor for a long time now. How come they can't get it right?

for

I would not recommend either of these products. Altium have recorded consistent losses over the last few years and it's not difficult to see part of the reason why. OrCAD is on the slippery slope. No doubt about it. The Schematics and Simulation are still OK, but the layout is awful and there's little or no dev on any of it.

If you want to know what I use and recommend it's Pulsonix. A much better product and lower priced than either of these.

Prescott

Well since your question is between the two.

First of all there is no ideal package. Secondly what are your needs?

I know that there are bugs and issues in the current DXP2004. However it seems that Altium is genuinely trying to address those issues in a timely and professional manner right now. It hasn't always been that way, can't guarantee it is not a fleeting cycle.

I hear there are also bugs and issues with OrCAD. Hearsay only as I have never used it, except for years of using OrCAD as a schematic front-end back in the DOS days.

From what I have heard and experienced, DXP2004 is destined to become a much more powerful system than OrCAD. With many complex capabilities and DRC rules capabilities. The new system is a bit non-standard in it's user interface and operation, however for those that take the time to learn it properly the payoffs will come in what you are capable of doing with the package.

Autorouting? The Situs (DXP2004) router still seems to be out to lunch and I wouldn't ever expect anything much out of it if you truly care about the integrity of your routing. What can you expect for that price range included in the whole package. OrCAD, not sure what OrCAD has for autorouting these days. If you truly need autorouting then spring for a proper autorouter like the latest Cooper Chyan/Cadence offering but be prepared to spend as much time learning to make it run (properly & as expected) as you would with the CAD package.

Simulation? I don't use it so I can't say other than I know some have used the simulation with reasonable results in P99SE & DXP. Can't say how hard it was for them to get there.

So if you are a tinkerer, parttime designer, I don't think either of these are the answer for you unless you just have too much money to spend on your hobby. But if you are a fulltime designer or in a small company looking for your long term solution I would suggest DXP2004 is my future roadmap.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"Jack// ani"  wrote in message
news:1113851027.175493.85000@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> This question has been asked thousand times! So don\'t expect
some
> good out of it...
>
> I believe it depends upon your application. OrCAD is good at
simulation
> whereas Protel is for PCB design.
>

OrCAD has some bugs, and the Titanic took on some water. Layout has always crashed at least once per half hour, Capture has taken to crashing once per half hour, and 90% of the way through my last project, Capture decided to crash catastrophically and take out my schematic with it, leaving me to finish the project from a layout only and then manually recreate the connection diagram from the netlist.

The same aforementioned project was finishable from Layout only because it was really just a glorified adapter. Through-hole connectors on one side, through-hole connectors on the other, traces between. I sat there massaging the connections in Capture until finally, when all was said and done, the rat's nest showed no crossovers. Every pin on side A could be routed directly to a pin on side B and never have to cross a neighbor to get there. And so I let SmartRoute have a go at it. At which point it very generously via'd every line, some up to three times, and tied my entire board into a knot. I eventually had to route the thing manually, which did in fact prove that it could be easily done with no crossing.

While I can't speak to Protel at all, I would personally never recommend OrCAD to anyone.

Cadence is trying to kill off Layout. The development team in India has taken over a year to get version 10 working. Unfortunately, they have no idea what they are programming! Presently, version 10 is pretty stable and useable. They slowed it down and broke numerous things. They have an irritating bug if you need to apply a scaling factor to a printer job. If you happen to buy Layout, insist on them giving you the latest version 9 release so you have a fully functional program when version 10 fails to work properly.

Cadence is pushing new customers to buy Allegro instead of Layout. Allegro seems to be a much better program than Layout. I have sat thru a demo and it looks pretty good. I would venture to guess that learning Allegro will take some time. Orcad Capture is bundled with Allegro and looks like the two programs shared data pretty good. If you despise Capture, Allegro will import Telesis net lists.

Both Layout and Allegro use the Specctra autorouter which can do good work if you sit down and plan out every net. Layout still has their old Massteck autorouter and SmartRoute. I haven't used their autorouters in years since the autorouters usually make a big mess on complicated boards.

In short, avoid Layout like the plague. If you want to jump into the Cadence camp, get Allegro. Or look at some of the other fine packages out there.

BTW, PSpice is a pretty good simulator. Of course, you could save a bunch of money and use LTspice which is a quality simulator and compatible with PSpice syntax. LTspice's schematic entry is a bit clunky and doesn't have a couple of the nice graphing features that PSpice has.

Mark

Don, And Pulsonix is what, $6995 USD (straight from their web pages) for the equal package? Wow, big difference when you are investing more in the user development than on the software. So Pulsonix isn't bargain basement either and Don should be more honest about it instead of trying to make it seem Pulsonix is incredibly cheaper at an equal product level. -- Sincerely, Brad Velander

for

again, that

the

what

The model I use is 2000 Pin with Autoroute. On the Pulsonix website it's currently $4495. I've found the product to be very stable with an excellent router. Brad, my simple question is this: how can these guys at Pulsonix get it right consistently and Altium can't? All we ever hear about Protel is "yep, still buggy, but they're trying to get it right..."

Prescott

It's not a cheap product, but bugs that do show up are fixed *very* quickly. It is much easier to use than the competition and Pulsonix is very repsonsive to suggestions from users. Overall cost of ownership (when designers' time is taken into account) will be much less than for Protel and OrCAD.

Leon

As I said, compare equal product levels. Do you want to compare 100 pin limit packages as well?

If Pulsonix get it right consistently, where is their user base? I have never met one person that uses it. Never heard of any professionals even considering it, just hobbyists and one man shops through the newsgroups. Actually , just you and a handful of others, some suspect of actually being Pulsonix employees.

As for the router, never seen one yet that works satisfactorily for less than $10K - $20K USD ( I remember when that was $30K or greater not all too long ago). At that you also have to take a course (about $5K US) just to really learn how to operate it. But it's the same sad story with all seran wrapped routers, as I said you just can't expect much out of any of them.

I never said that Altium always gets it right, I gave them an honest assessment that right now they seem to be working diligently to cleanup DXP. It hasn't always been the case as I suggested.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"Don Prescott"  wrote in message
news:7fb54666.0504200834.5b2ba00f@posting.google.com...
> "Brad Velander"  wrote in message
news:...
> > Don,
> >     And Pulsonix is what, $6995 USD (straight from their web
> > pages) for the equal package? Wow, big difference when you
are
> > investing more in the user development than on the software.
So
> > Pulsonix isn\'t bargain basement either and Don should be more
> > honest about it instead of trying to make it seem Pulsonix is
> > incredibly cheaper at an equal product level.
> >  -- 
>
> The model I use is 2000 Pin with Autoroute.  On the Pulsonix
website
> it\'s currently $4495. I\'ve found the product to be very stable
with an
> excellent router.  Brad, my simple question is this: how can
these
> guys at Pulsonix get it right consistently and Altium can\'t?
All we
> ever hear about Protel is "yep, still buggy, but they\'re trying
to get
> it right..."
>
> Prescott

They basically got the software structured properly using C++ right from the start, making enhancements quite easy, without introducing too many new bugs. Having excellent software engineers is another factor, as well as using tools like Trolltech's QT for the GUI. They also have the benefit of me being one of their beta testers. 8-)

Leon

--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Even if you take the unlimited pins model it's still lower priced than Protel.

Pulsonix is quite a new product. It was only released a few years ago, so it's not surprising you haven't encountered many users. Protel started what, 25 years ago....? Pulsonix have quite a large user-base in the US so I believe. I've spoke to several other users. Nothing like the user-base of Protel I agree. I may be wrong but I haven't heard of any hobbyists shelling $7K. They are usually use the free versions or open source stuff.

You're talking past-tense here Brad. This sounds like SPECCTRA speak. The Pulsonix router might not be quite on par with SPECCTRA but it's pretty close.

There's no justifiable excuse why a multi million dollar operation can't release reliable software, and a usable router. Not guaranteed bug-free of course 'cos nobody can do that. As can be seen by other messages, the basic rule of thumb: "don't touch any Protel release until service pack 5".......! How can you defend that..?

Prescott

It's only been going for a couple of years, but they already have a substantial user base. I run the Yahoo Pulsonix users group - it has very little activity because the software just gets the job done, with very few problems:

All the senior Pulsonix people are ex-Zuken, with decades of PCB software experience between them.

Pulsonix uses the Electra router, it's also available for Protel. It's very good, as routers go, and quite easy to use. I think it was written by the same chap who developed Specctra, now sold by Cadence.

Leon

--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Don, Do you always make mindless arguments and arguments on points that coincide with peoples comments?

25 years? Yeah right, were you in diapers then Don? If you weren't then you would know that there was no CAD 25 years ago unless you had mainframes or PDPs handy. Protel started approx. 1990 after the split between Nick M. and the Accel people. So approx. 15 years, not 25 years.

Yes the unlimited version is lower priced than Protel, I told you that as well. So you can save $1000 on a $8K package while you spend $10K or more in training and support and setup costs to adapt and start using the package reasonably well.

You critique me for mentioning Spectra as past-tense but almost every comment you make about Protel is past tense as well. Find anyone making comments about DXP and 5 service packs? DXP had 2 SPs, DXP2004 is currently on SP2 with SP3 imminent. There has been a wide acceptance of DXP from the start, very few users went back to P99SE and that was mostly an initial GUI/familiarity protest because they altered so many basic operations in the program.

Find the comments that are not just past-tense, then maybe we can talk. That is if the complaint is not just mindless cattle fodder because the user figured it should do things or should do them the same way as the package that they were used to using.

Then again, if you want to discuss the subject of the thread feel free. Otherwise I don't know where Pulsonix was invited into the conversation before you rudely pushed your way in like a used car salesman with off topic comparisons and exaggerations of price savings for lesser products that very well may not have met the original request's needs.

-- Sincerely, Brad Velander

priced than

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use the

when

also

to

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speak.

but it's

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release

"mindless cattle fodder"...."pushed your way in like a used car salesman" Tsk, Tsk, Brad! Do I detect you're getting a triffle pissed...

Let's get something straight - Pulsonix is NOT a lesser product than Protel. It came in merely 'cos I said I wouldn't recommend either OrCAD or Protel and I mentioned what I use and recommend.

But let's face it - you're a fully paid-up Protel groupie. I can see that. Hearing something adverse about your pet product obviously offends your sensibilites. Calm down!

Prescott

Don quit pissing up the rope, and look at where it is ending up.

And your opinion is based upon what, hearsay and rumor? That's all you have offered in argument against either package.

Now listen closely Don because you are obviously hard of hearing and failed to register it any of the other numerous times I have state the same things.

I don't use DXP, I don't say Protel is the greatest, I admit that Protel has been less than attentive in the past to bugs and improvements. I have only stated that at the moment Protel seems to be mending their ways an that if those few existing issues are suitably addressed there will be no product in the price point that can touch it for power. So you can go f*ck yourself with your baseless accusations. They only exist in your own petty little mind.

Got any references or experience to share touting DXP2004 not being usable until 5 SPs? If you don't then just f*ck off you little troll.

-- Sincerely, Brad Velander

points

you

ago

approx.

you

you

well.

DXP

There

users

GUI/familiarity

maybe we

cattle

do

using.

thread

into

used

met

than

either

can see

obviously

Oh Brad how could you.... the 'f' word! You have been a very bad boy! Have you been missing your anger management classes.....?

From Simon peacock on about Protel DXP: "I am also on the DXP beta list.. There is about a service pack a month there."?.."And yes DXP is buggy.." "I don't see my current company upgrading to DXP until there are a few more service packs."

So Brad old pal, how many service packs would you want before you would start using DXP...? Maybe 4 is about the right number.... Seemingly "5" sends to into a fit.... Now calm down Brad, it's only a number.... breath deeply.....

I've never been called a little troll before...... What is a troll..?

Prescott

Steady on children.

I can only agree that if you had paid n-mega bucks for Protel you would have to be a 'protel groupie' to do so. It circulates for free just about everywhere in PRC so it is cheaper to fly there and get a copy.

If you want to see reall sad groupies - what about the poor souls that have paid money for Cadstar? Now that software really is b*ll*cks.

Geeeee Don, You are so smart, not!

Why didn't you quote my comments that initiated Simon's response? Maybe that would have refuted your disparaging comments towards me?

However, even your quotes from Simon are very selective and incomplete. Why did you not quote Simon's comment fully? "And yes DXP is buggy.. but less so then earlier releases of DXP." One would reasonably assume that the first DXP was actually intended to be DXP2004 otherwise the comment doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Now Don, how did you selectively miss Simon's comment from just the other day? "Some of the bugs are even documentation issues... on that side they have fallen well short of 2.8 & 98. But for all its faults.. it is quite usable."

Don, so what are you saying with your quotes from Simon? DXP Beta releases are buggy? DXP Beta service packs come out too often, not often enough? Simon's company won't upgrade for what reason? Simon doesn't actually use or suggest that DXP is usable? What is it Don?

Troll(n) - look in the mirror!

Maybe you should check the dictionary for "spin doctor" as well, since you are so adept at using quotes or partial quotes out of context.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"Don Prescott"  wrote in message
news:7fb54666.0504230524.5c7f45c6@posting.google.com...
> Oh Brad how could you.... the \'f\' word!  You have been a very
bad boy!
> Have you been missing your anger management classes.....?
>
> From Simon peacock on about Protel DXP: "I am also on the DXP
beta
> list.. There is about a service pack a month there."..."And yes
DXP is
> buggy.." "I don\'t see my current company upgrading to DXP until
there
> are a few more service packs."
>
> So Brad old pal, how many service packs would you want before
you
> would start using DXP...?  Maybe 4 is about the right
number....
> Seemingly "5" sends to into a fit.... Now calm down Brad, it\'s
only a
> number.... breath deeply.....
>
> I\'ve never been called a little troll before...... What is a
troll..?
>
> Prescott