# Dirty Electricity - Page 2

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Re: Dirty Electricity

power ..

presented by modern CFLs.

I don't think so. Read it again and please quote the parts from the link that
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/reactive-power-due-cfl-lighting
Are you trying to claim that 'harmonic reactive power' is not 'reactive power' ?

Apparent power is the vector sum of real power and reactive power.
If the PF is not unity, there must be a reactive power component, by definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power

AC supply voltage and current and as a result

If the PF is not unity a phase angle MUST exist between V and I, by definition
of PF.

Another lecture on Power Factor ....

"fritz"

** Oh dear -  here we go again for what must be the hundredth time    -
explaining what PF is to someone who damn well ought to know already.

**  It does all over the place -  but you are too blind to see it.

**  Fraid there is no such animal as "harmonic reactive power".

** The definition of PF given in that article is:

"The ratio between real power and apparent power in a circuit is called the
power factor."

The definition of "apparent power" is:

" Apparent power is conventionally expressed in volt-amperes (VA) since it
is the product of rms voltage and rms current."

So, the definition of PF is:

Real power / VA    (  where V and A are both in rms values. )

Notice -  there is no sign of  " cos phi " in sight  !!!!

Means there is no need for a phase angle to exist for the PF to be low.

All it takes is that the current wave have a higher ratio of RMS to average
( rectified ) value than a sine wave does.

For a sine wave, the RMS to average ratio is 1.11 -  this is the correction
factor built into most AC volt meters so they show the RMS value for sine
waves accurately ( but nothing else ).

For the sort of spiky wave a CFL draws, the ratio is about 2.0.

Hence the PF is around 0.55.

.....  Phil

Re: Another lecture on Power Factor ....

explaining what PF is to someone who damn well ought to

Or the other way round.

load presented by modern CFLs.

Really ? Then perhaps you could actually quote something from the link
that contradicts me ?
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/reactive-power-due-cfl-lighting

power' ?

It is used in some circles to describe the effect harmonic currents
have on PF. Like the link which I am waiting for a quote that
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/reactive-power-due-cfl-lighting

Make it relevant to "** CFLs have  NO  no reactive power component"

definition.

power factor."

the product of rms voltage and rms current."

Yeah, so why do you bring it up ? I didn't.

But there are plenty of 'reactive power' mentions, remember what you said ;
"** CFLs have  NO  no reactive power component."
Now, getting back to the point, CFLs MUST have a reactive power component
because real power is less than VA.

The instantaneous phase angle MUST be different or the PF would be unity.

Perhaps you don't know anything about calculus - when you deal with
complex waveforms you need to use higher mathematics -you calculate
the instantaneous values and sum them.

> All it takes is that the current wave have a higher ratio of RMS to average

It requires the current wave to have a different shape to the voltage wave.
It doesn't matter if it is a phase difference or an envelope difference or both
- the PF will not be unity unless the voltage and current are in phase and have
the same envelope.

Re: Dirty Electricity

power ..

http://cemalighting.com/contents/view/learning/lighting_technology/compact_fluorescent_lamps/high_power_factor_cfl

Re: Dirty Electricity

capacity, and the need to build power factor correction

PF correction at residential consumers will not reduce the transmission
capacity requirement to any significant degree, even if every home had
one of these rip-offs plugged in. The peak load requirement comes
from things like ovens and water heaters which are unity PF. Other large
domestic inductive loads usually already have PF correction - e.g
airconditioners.

You cannot use a single fixed-value passive device (e.g. capacitor) to correct
PF unless it is matched to the actual reactive load. For example, a washing
machine
motor will draw a wide range of reactive current depending on whether it is
agitating,
spin-drying etc.  You need different PF correction for each load, not a
one-size-fits-all
rip-off box at the power point.
http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf

particularly if consumers can be duped into paying for

electricity bills.

They are probably just having a good laugh, and getting paid for it.

the U.S"

Sounds like a load of bullshit invented by the scammers.

"saving electricity" mean? The current is reduced, for

bill each month". (What does "up to X or more"

output from the Earthwise device, with the result

leading to the device.

If you have nothing but pure reactive loads you will not be doing anything
useful, so what is the point of connecting them to the supply anyway ?

Re: Dirty Electricity

capacity, and the need to build power factor correction

airconditioners.

My airconditioner is a good way off unity power factor, and it's not as
if people turn of their low PF appliances at times of peak demand.

machine

agitating,

one-size-fits-all

Where is it stated that the device in question is passive?

the U.S"

The more so when one notes that the same phrase appears in web sites for
multiple "power saving" devices, except that there seems disagreement
about whether the number is \$80 or \$16.

But more than likely, if such a comment was made at all, it was made in
a context that is not relevant to the claims made for the device.

"saving electricity" mean? The current is reduced, for

electric bill each month". (What does "up to X or more"

output from the Earthwise device, with the result

leading to the device.

Dunno - to justify a 35% saving claim, perhaps. I did suggest it was an
unrealistic scenario.

Sylvia.

Re: Dirty Electricity

capacity, and the need to build power factor

airconditioners.

Have you actually measured the PF of your A/C ? How did you do it ? What was it ?

http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf

demand.

You are missing the point - the large current consuming devices determine the
peak transmission
current capacity.  Low PF low current appliances do not add significantly to the
peak currents required by
the main loads like hotplates, ovens, radiators etc.

machine

agitating,

one-size-fits-all

Sigh..Quoted from 'How It Works' at the Earthwank Power Scammer website
# This is achieved by supplying electricity locally at the load by the use of
specially designed capacitor.
# This advanced capacitor stores the additional electricity needed for
stabilizing electric current within an inductive load.
# Earthwise Power Saver does not consume electricity itself ...

Now, Einstein, put these claims together and you get a capacitor, a passive
device even if it as advanced one (chuckle),
all active devices consume electricity so the Earthwank Power Scammer cannot be
an active device by their own admission.

It looks a more expensively packaged version of the boxes described in Silicon
Chip Nov. 2007 and May 2008.

Re: Dirty Electricity

capacity, and the need to build power factor

airconditioners.

it ?

http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf

demand.

peak transmission

the peak currents required by

I question that they do not add significantly. They are not a large
proportion, but they still have to be handled. Do power factor
correction in the home, and you can delay the next transmission line,
switching station and transformer upgrade. Delaying an upgrade is worth
money.

correct

machine

agitating,

one-size-fits-all

specially designed capacitor.

stabilizing electric current within an inductive load.

They can still be switched in and out.

device even if it as advanced one (chuckle),

be an active device by their own admission.

I could happily put down the no-power consumption claim to simply being
a lie, or they'll argue that they meant no-net power consumption (i.e.
it saves more than it uses, despite not actually saving any). They don't
seem overly bothered by such things. The box looks like it's designed to
enhance heat dissipation.

Sylvia.

Re: Dirty Electricity

transmission capacity, and the need to build power factor

airconditioners.

was it ?

attached to it imply a non-unity PF.

Really ? So you haven't actually measured it all, have you ?
What is the brand and model ? What are the figures on the label, perhaps you have
misinterpreted them ?

This might interest you.

"The manufacturers of power factor devices frequently claim that air
conditioners have
low power factors. During development we measured the power factor of some units.
At least the ones we have tested were already compensated internally very well.
So no improvement potential here. Even our cheap Hitachi window unit has a power
factor of 1.0 with maximum deviations to 0.99 inductive and 0.99 capactitive."
http://www.aircosaver.com/support_techniques.php

Re: Dirty Electricity

"fritz"

** Small point - but if the above is literally true, the device is
dangerous.

PF correction capacitors fitted to the incoming AC supply ( no matter which
side of the demarcation line)  need to have a means of discharging the cap
if the supply becomes disconnected.

Usually, bleed resistors are fitted across the cap bank to discharge it to a
safe value in second or so at most. Means the box should dissipate about 5
to 10 watts continuously per phase or circuit.

Another issue is the large spike of current any bank of caps will draw when
switched onto the AC supply ( most times ) needs to be kept down to a value
that will not immediately trip a domestic breaker -  even with a other loads
connected.

Probably means using no more than 30 to 40uF  = enough to PF correct one
decent size fridge.

BTW:

WES will sell you a 40uF, mains rated polyprop cap for \$12.50.

A nice metal box will cost more.

......  Phil

Re: Dirty Electricity

http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf

Interesting article and I believe also factually correct, except that it
talks about actual savings in domestic wiring, which are, even at 110V,
ridiculously low.
This could give a slither of dignity and credibility to the claims of
the tricksters, to a numerically challenged reader.

Re: Dirty Electricity

http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf

It won't even save those if it's mounted at the switch board. To provide
saving in the domestic wiring any PFC correction has to be done at the
appliance, which implies multiple devices.

I note that the suppliers of these devices have not done the obvious and
potentially convincing, test - power meter -> device -> another power
meter -> domestic wiring. Presumably they know that the result wouldn't
be advantageous to them.

Sylvia.

Re: Dirty Electricity

http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/705PET23.pdf

about actual savings in domestic wiring, which are,

For the numerically-challenged, TonyS is saying that while the losses at 110V
are ridiculously low,
the losses at 220/240V are even lower ! (coz the current is halved)

tricksters, to a numerically challenged reader.

If someone reads that info and still goes and buys a scam-box, then they deserve
to be ripped off.

Re: Dirty Electricity

If you take 80 billion dollars, and to make it easy assume 3 people
per billed premises,
with a population of 300 million (USA) then that means \$800 per billed
premises
(per year? - it does not specify)

The only places that I can think of that they could be talking about
would be distribution losses
such as resistance in power lines, arcing from HT lines into the air
and across dirty insulators, transformer losses etc.
Unused off peak power etc.

This all has to be passed on to the consumer in the form of higher
cost per KWH as it is an actual cost, even though it is "unusable
power"

You could also talk about standby power - but this is still being used
for a purpose and can be stopped by turning off the device when not in
use (if possible).

Re: Dirty Electricity

"kreed"

If you take 80 billion dollars, and to make it easy assume 3 people
per billed premises,

** That is way high.

The correct figure is more like 1.5 persons.

The only places that I can think of that they could be talking about
would be distribution losses
such as resistance in power lines, arcing from HT lines into the air
and across dirty insulators, transformer losses etc.
Unused off peak power etc.

** Ditto.

The figure is an absurd fiction derived very likely by subtracting the total
kWh estimated to be generated by all the alternators connected to the grid
in the USA and subtracting from that the billed kWh for the whole country  -
and THEN applying the domestic kWh rate to the difference.

Only a brain dead, Green retard would even bother.

Fraid there are far too many of them.

.... Phil

Re: Dirty Electricity

The nation must be dying out at that rate, but it is more accurate.

That is the only way I can think of that they would come up with that
figure.

True.  Very true.  I wish they would make the "ultimate sacrifice for
the planet" and leave the rest of us alone.

The brain dead things I hear about electricity on other forums with
non-technical people astound me, and
they refuse to listen to fact.

Re: Dirty Electricity

Very credible NOT. Real universities have a url ending in .edu*USA( or
.edu.(country code).

Another mates product being promoted.

Re: Dirty Electricity

Have you seen their web site?  Kook central.  No really, it's one thing
to say it, and another to see there's that large a collection of nutjobs
who actually believe it.
--
There's no future in time travel

Re: Dirty Electricity

Quote:
"Welcome to Panacea University and the faculty section of the main
Panacea-BOCAF website. Here you will find, via free access, the most
current versions of educational semi-textbooks and reports of
experiments having to do with alternative engineering that are not
currently taught in the accepted universities. Our aims are to protect
and provide studies and archives of information dealing with, for
instance, free energy technology, suppressed energy technology,
mileage boosting, lowering emissions, alternative fuels, interesting
motor modifications and studies in rotors and magnets97%sometimes called
experimental magnetic motors or experimental magnetic generators."

It's just a PF correction cap in a fancy case for \$1300
What a hoot.

Dave.
www.eevblog.com

Re: Dirty Electricity
...

You can buy them on Ebay from \$30 (in fancy case), no need to spend
\$1300-1700.

Tom