So what's the truth about lead-free solder ? - Page 3

Do you have a question? Post it now! No Registration Necessary

Translate This Thread From English to

Threaded View
Prong speaks his mind !



Quoted text here. Click to load it


Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Depends on the standards in use where they work.  PAL where you  live, SECAM
in others, and NTSC is still others.
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Spot on.  There has always been smaller stations (also poorer economically
andd then technically).
Quoted text here. Click to load it

--
 JosephKK
 Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens.  
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:39:17 +0100, Eeyore

Quoted text here. Click to load it
recent outburst.


 As if I need to measure up to your retarded assessments, much less that
of some other peanut gallery twit.

Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?

Quoted text here. Click to load it
Of course there is DVB-T in the UK, that's why we know from personal
experience that it looks worse than the old UK PAL system, that admittedly
does have a wider video bandwidth than what you would have been used to.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
Perhaps they have throttled down the bitrate per channel in the UK to less
than they use where you are.  I would like to see the numbers.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
Or just someone who has seen both pictures and then tells the truth.  I
suspect that many people who have just spent a couple of grand on a new TV
feel that they have to say it looks better, because otherwise that would
make them stupid - so it's like the emperor's new clothes.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
The more recent PAL TVs have fancy FIR comb filters that fix most of that
stuff.  It is certainly less intrusive than the DVB-T artefacts, like noise
that freezes and then jumps and then freezes again.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
And then buy another one when they switch to MPEG-4, which they have already
proposed doing.  Well by then it will have failed from tin whiskers anyhow.

Chris


Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?
On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:06:19 +0100) it happened Chris Jones

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Well, tehre are some channels 9I can tell you as ican get all UK stuff here too
via satellite, tha tis ITV1-4 BBC- Parliament (if that is a channel), many more,
and soem of teh FTA Ky.

I have __***NEVER***__ seen 'noise stop', that is actually a sign of your
decoder not keeping up, I have noticed that some Sky channels transmit in
352x288 (the set will scale it to full) so at 1/4 the bandwidth, but you
cannot blame that on the digital system!!!!!! Blame it on Rupert!!!
You are not talking about a f*cking Skybox no?????????????????


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Exactly, there is, if you have a PCI card, some Linux program that shows
all the bitrates for the various streams in the transponders.
Cannot remember the name of the program, there are hundreds of utilities.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Sure, I do not question the observation, but I do say you need to compare
GOOD digital with GOOD PAL composite, else comparing makes no sense.

 I
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Yes those pople may exist, but normal people would return the set.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

That is why I am using a PC, no matter how they encode it, I will find
some decoder.

The public will keep buying new stuf fevery standard change say maybe even
more often then the lead-free requires.

Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Of COURSE I have digital, foolish person. That is how I am able to comment
on this. I have had analogue satellite since it was first available as DBS,
and I changed over to digital as soon as that became available. I also still
take analogue from the terrestrial transmissions, and carry out repairs to
digital terrestrial STBs as part of my living, so I am able to compare all
standards at all times. I feed signals around my house at UHF, and have
perfectly clean signals at every TV  - and there are a lot of them. As far
as HDTV signals go, they just about manage to get back up to the standard of
a *good* analogue transmission. As far as your opinion of my being
inexperienced goes, I have been directly involved with this stuff from the
service angle for 37 years. If that makes me 'inexperienced' in your eyes,
sobeit.

As for beat interference atrifacts from tweed jackets and loud ties, this
has not been much of a problem for years, since people in studios were
dressed properly for the job. Even so, I would still rather see a 'busy' tie
on a newsreader, than motion artifacts - both edge pixelation and motion
blur - any day of the week.

It's all very well saying that compression artifacts are a product of
available bandwidth, but that bandwidth is much limited with terrestrial
digital, if you want to pack in the number of channels that they seem to
want to. This allows for a perfectly satisfactory picture so long as it is
standing still, but does not if the bitrate needs to go up high enough to
prevent motion artifacts. For the most part, however, I would agree with you
that this is not an issue with the satellite transmissions, where the
limiting factor becomes how good a transponder, bit rate-wise, the station
can afford to lease.

Make no mistake, I am not trying here to compare a good digital signal - say
Sky Movies Premiere - with a poor noisy anlogue signal. What I am saying is
that the general public is being 'sold a pup' with the digital terrestrial
channels, where even the best quality transmissions, struggle to produce a
picture subjectively as good as that produced on a *good* analogue TV with a
*good* analogue PAL signal going in.

Arfa



Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?



Quoted text here. Click to load it

I agree with you.

The same holds for DAB too.

Graham


Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?

Quoted text here. Click to load it


  Both terrestrial broadcast, as well as satellite uplinks are 6MHz wide
STANDARD channel slots and transponder slots.  That was one of the rules
of the game back when all this started.

  So, on "terrestrial", one can expect the best picture, as it is "single
channel per carrier" (SCPC), whereas a satellite uplink from a service
provider is going to be a "multiple channel per carrier" (MCPC)
implementation, in 99.9999% of the cases.

 Artifacts are a product of bit error rate.  If the bit error rate of
your reception in zero, you WILL get ALL of the data.

  The other source of artifacts are pre transmission compression.

  In the old MCPC setup, only 6 or 10 channels per carrier could be
pumped, and it was an MPEG-2 compression schema and a 480i schema.

  Now, they put up to 12 channels per carrier (per transponder) into the
uplink for 24 or 64 channels per transponder total.

  With HDTV, much more data per frame needs to be dealt with.  FEC is
your friend.

Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?

Quoted text here. Click to load it


  Bullshit.  That is EXACTLY where the multiple channel per carrier thing
gets implemented.

 In terrestrial schemes, it is only ONE channel per 6MHz wide carrier.

  Your tuner may say that there are 3 PBS channels on the number 15, but
the actual frequencies of those channels are all on separate 6MHZ wide
slots with MAYBE only one which as actually on the channel 15 assigned
frequency.

Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?



Quoted text here. Click to load it

'Arfa' is in the UK. There is no 'PBS' here.

We do have the BBC though, although it's been degraded terribly in the last few
years on the cross of  'political correctness'.

Graham



Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

  You must be in a different multiverse location.

 Satellite service gives you 300 plus channels by putting up to 12 6MHz
wide "channels" into each 6MHz wide slot.

http://www.tech-faq.com/mcpc.shtml

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/MCPC.html

Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?
On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:31:48 GMT) it happened "Arfa Daily"

Quoted text here. Click to load it

A very interesting posting.
Indeed.
Sure, we must see that the 'aim of the game' is to sell new stuff to the
customers.
In many case 'new' is not 'better', as we see for example with mp3 on
portable players and even being played via HiFi, but then Vinyl was
better then 44100 CD LOL hahahahahaha
Well according to some anyways.
In the same way MPEG2 (or H264) or whatever compression is not a lossless
compression and YES has artefacts, BUT these are (the system is designed
that way) not normally percieved as anying.

The truth for me is that movies I have seen in the past on VHS do not touch
me more then movies I see in HD, or normal digital.

So 37 years, that puts you back to 1970, I started in professional broadcasting
in 1968....
Almost a year after color started here.
I have seen it all, from iconoscope camera upwards...

So, anyways, stuff needs to be sold, the madness started with widescreen,
stretching people so they became really short and fat, and the consumer
bought it...
LOL

And even that still goes on.
In the early color days transmisisons were closely guarded by many specialized
capable
engineers with years of experience and training.
Thse days anyone can but a digital camera and produce quality that is better.
Or quality that is worse.

I have my house wired with cat, RJ45 is the connector, no UHF cables here,
except form an antenne in the attick for long range digital terrestial.

I absolutely have to disagree about the quality of HD satellite versus
analog PAL, you must be joking right?

At a resolution of 1980x1080i there is NO WAY analog can compare.
I wanted to show you a screenshot, so I tuned to Astra HD promo,
shows National Geograhics Channel, I have to agree no HD material :-)
just flipper in the water etc....

The French had much better high detail demos.....

Of course if you watch 1920x1080 progressive downscaled via UHF on a PAL TV
in the other room it will not be better then than PAL TV's say <6MHz
bandwidth, but I am sure you know that, SAME for settop box on a SCART with
<50MHz bandwidth video amps, you need 200MHz pixel clock at least.

I can only repeat: real HDTV you must see it to believe it, and the conclusion
is that perhaps you only ever watched BBC and astra flipper stuff without
any details.




Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?

Quoted text here. Click to load it
Well, I have a friend who runs a large Sky installation company, and he has
the latest dog's bollocks HD Sky box, and the latest dog's bollocks Sony all
singing and dancing LCD widescreen TV and home cinema system, all hooked
together HDMI, and when he showed me it on a Sky HD demo (and presumably Sky
have hand picked this content to be the best available, unless the Frogs
know something that they don't) I have to say that I was a little
disappointed. Yes, when you get right up to the screen, you can see the
hairs on the bee's legs - very impressive - but when you sit far enough back
for the viewing of that size of TV to be 'comfortable', the resolution of
your eyes is not good enough to pick out that level of detail anyway.

I would have to be stupid to maintain that on paper at least, the digital
satellite broadcasts in HD are not better than analogue PAL transmissions,
but subjectively, as I have been maintaining from the start, on a good
analogue TV with a good analogue signal going in, there is not a lot to
choose, and unless you are talking top-notch digital as in satellite HD, in
many cases, I still maintain that subjectively (there's that word again...)
the PAL analogue solution wins out over the average digital one. There are
also, of course, undeniable advantages to digital TV, but I really don't
think at this stage, that picture quality is one of them.

Of course, the artifacts placed on the picture by the digital display device
only serve to exacerbate the situation, but that's another story ...

Arfa



Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?
On a sunny day (Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:10:53 GMT) it happened "Arfa Daily"

Quoted text here. Click to load it

OK, that is a good argument, how far away you are from the screen.
I am getting old and near-sighted, I need glasses to see small detail
close up, so that does require me to sit close in front of a big monitor with
glasses, or get a projection screen of huge size..... without glasses.
I am close to the monitor, close to the TV.
I can still see pixels on the 1680x1050 screen, so I am not too worried.
Finally managed to grap some sort of HD content from SkyPromo:
 ftp://panteltje.com/pub/00000300.ppm
 
1920x1088 Now how about PAL composite ;-)

This is how I grabbed it in Linux:
xdipo -c 1 -g '10.5 E' -f 12610.5 -p v -s 22000 -a 133 134 -o > q1.ts

The 10.5 replace it where you see the satellite,
the recording is transport stream q1.ts
I wrote xdipo.


Then I let it run for a few seconds, and converted all frames to pnm
pictures with the magic command:
mplayer -vo pnm q1.ts
This generated
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root    6266897 2007-07-27 16:50 00000001.ppm
....
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root    6266897 2007-07-27 16:50 00000300.ppm
......

300 had at least some detail.

Now you need a 1980x10808 monitor.....

More then 6MB for a screenshot.... :-)


 

Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?



Quoted text here. Click to load it

Most posters seemed to be comparing the 'normal' signal that's readily available
to us via
terrestrial broadcast, cable or satellite. Certainly not any HD ones.


Graham




Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Actually I think you may be speaking some truth there.  In the UK, the video
bandwidth of the analogue PAL signal is wider than in other PAL countries,
which is why they had to move the sound subcarrier further from the vision
carrier, and which is why TVs couldn't be taken to/from the UK from/to
other PAL countries without some re-tuning, until multi-standard chipsets
were introduced.  It is very likely that he has never seen a PAL signal
with as much resolution as we get in the UK.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Yes, I borrowed a digital PVR from a friend and was not at all impressed.  I
don't like it when the numerical noise sometimes stays still and sometimes
moves.  If they had not tried to cram so many channels of crap into the
bandwidth then they could have made it as good as the analogue system.
It's not like they have enough worthwhile programmes to fill even the
analogue channels, so they could have afforded the bandwidth.

Chris


Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?
On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:55:42 +0100) it happened Chris Jones

Quoted text here. Click to load it

No it is crap.

<  In the UK,

YUK


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Yea, well known, BBC, before it went brain dead, used to make nice pictures,
even had in the very old ages 4 tube cameras, I have been there, touched them,
had some interesting discussions with their techies.

Whatever you may think, compared to digital it sucks.
And that is digital done the right way, it makes no sense to
compare bad digital to HQ studio analog PAL as you do here when you talk
about some cheapo unspecified piece of consumer quality, about
some unspecified channels, sure you can get it as bad as you like.



Quoted text here. Click to load it

Idiot.





Now that sure counts as a professional test.

Morons.

BYE

Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Well I agree that there is no theoretical reason why the fact that the
signal is digital necessarily makes it look bad, for example the PAL
pictures that I have been watching were probably processed in the digital
domain through most of the signal chain before transmission.

What I am comparing is the end-user experience of watching a consumer grade
DVB-T receiver (in my case a Pioneer decoder), when compared to a
consumer-grade PAL receiver.  In the end, if the picture quality is worse
USING THE EQUIPMENT AVAILABLE TO CONSUMERS, then that is all that counts.
I realise that a digital system with 300Mbits per second could be much
better than PAL, but what is being given to us is NOT better than PAL.  By
all means they could build a good digital system, but that is not what this
is about.  It is about freeing up as much spectrum as possible for auction,
whilst enabling the maximum number of channels of adverts to be transmitted
with a quality that is just good enough not to cause a backlash that would
result in people just turning off and watching a DVD.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
But surely you don't dispute that the channel bandwidth here is wider than
what you used to get?

Quoted text here. Click to load it
Well you just go and sit in your studio and watch your test cards then.
What actually matters is the picture quality that people (don't) get in
their homes.

Quoted text here. Click to load it
Whatever.

Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?
On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:41:12 +0100) it happened Chris Jones

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Here is a screenshot of a testcard from satellite:
 
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/testcard-2.png
So what is wrong?
767x576 png, how you have a monitor with that resolution ;-)

Now this picture travelled > 40000 km.

Re: So what's the truth about lead-free solder ?
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:15:16 GMT, Jan Panteltje

Quoted text here. Click to load it


 The best purchase you can make for examining such things:

(Amazon.com product link shortened)

http://www.videoessentials.com /

  I cannot do a capture from the HD DVD output, but I'd bet that even my
Std DVD (it's a combo disc) side would look quite good coming though the
computer, and I could post it in a.b.s.e.

  This oughtta be good...  ;-]

Site Timeline