Dead Electrical

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Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and  
stopped.  Next turn solenoid clicked only.  After that no sound on  
turning key.   No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.  

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today.  Battery is new and checks out as  
fully charged.  Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links.  Wiring diagrams  
show them but do not tell where to look for them.  I assume close to the  
battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions?  Thanks in advance.



Re: Dead Electrical
On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:20:37 -0700, Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinney wrote:

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Have you got some dirt or oil/grease on the battery posts? That's what it  
sounds like to me.


Re: Dead Electrical
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it  
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Posts are clean.  New battery 2 months ago and cleaned good and check  
hot and neutral wires.
  

Re: Dead Electrical
On 6/04/2016 2:04 AM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
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So when is grease on the terminals bad ??

Re: Dead Electrical
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Before it is connected. After it is connected grease helps keep the elements away but you don't want it between the mating surfaces.  

Re: Dead Electrical
On 6/04/2016 10:39 AM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Hmmm, I wonder how all those switches immersed in oil ever work ??

Re: Dead Electrical
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They are designed for it. Line of contact where the spring pressure rests a
nd forces metal to metal contact. This is not the same thing. this is a rou
nd cylinder with a clamp on it that is supposed to make connection good for
 a couple hundred amps. When GM came out with the side post battery, there  
could be grease in there because they had raised parts on the connectors th
at actually dug into the lead. Really, side post batteries were a disaster,
 a piece of shit. I knew alot of people who converted them to the normal to
p post.  

Thing is, the terminals that connect to the batter are smooth. If they put  
teeth on them that would be different. then you could grease the shit out o
f them. bnut they don't do that and actually they have good reason.  

Bottom line, clean everything best you can, make the connection and tighten
 it, and then apply the protective grease of your choice.  

Take my word for it, I have been at this for a while.

Re: Dead Electrical
On Friday, April 8, 2016 at 5:03:01 PM UTC-7, Rheilly Phoull wrote:
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There's lots of kinds of grease.  Some has particles that help prevent wear, but also prevent
metal-metal contact.  Some has conductive particles, that might cause unintended conduction.
Some has semiconducting particles, especially to enhance electrical contact.  And some,
like petroleum jelly or silicone grease, has no capability to hold metal parts apart (but is
good against corrosion and/or condensing moisture).

Re: Dead Electrical

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Some mechanics can not be educated.  If the grease is any good,not all of it  
will be squeezed out so there is direct metal contact.

 Think of it, the purpose of grease is to prevent metal to metal contact.

Clean the posts and clamps where they mate and put the clamps on.  Then put  
the grease or whatever you want on after that.




Re: Dead Electrical
On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 1:19:36 PM UTC-4, Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney wr
ote:
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pped.  Next turn solenoid clicked only.  After that no sound on turning key
.   No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.  
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 charged.  Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.
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ow them but do not tell where to look for them.  I assume close to the batt
ery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.
Quoted text here. Click to load it

They will be (typically) some sort of little black box mounted on the firew
all, or somewhere near the main fuse box or battery, it may look like a fan
cy connector as well. But it will be there. There will be no such thing on  
the ground side. Only on the + side.  

Peter Wieck  
Melrose Park, PA

Re: Dead Electrical
On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 1:19:36 PM UTC-4, Snuffy "Hub Cap" McKinney  
wrote:
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stopped.  Next turn solenoid clicked only.  After that no sound on  
turning key.   No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.  
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fully charged.  Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.
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show them but do not tell where to look for them.  I assume close to the  
battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.
Quoted text here. Click to load it

They will be (typically) some sort of little black box mounted on the  
firewall, or somewhere near the main fuse box or battery, it may look  
like a fancy connector as well. But it will be there. There will be no  
such thing on the ground side. Only on the + side.  

Peter Wieck  
Melrose Park, PA


Thanks, I looked and didn't see it yet.  Hot battery terminal has one  
large and one small wire, both going directly to the solenoid relay  
mounted on the side wall.  No voltage drop between battery post and  
relay connection.

3 others hot wired connected there on the same post go various places,  
but none go to anything that would have fuses, relays in it.

Will keep looking for it.  I'm suspecting the problem is in the ground  
circuit.  Will attack that next.




Re: Dead Electrical


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Ground the negative probe of a voltmeter to some clean metal part of the  
engine block and the positive probe to the negative battery post - if the  
post swings negative under load; you've got a bad earth.

On motorcycles, I've had bad earths between engine and frame - I've no idea  
whether or not that can happen on a car. But I'd assume anythings possible.  


Re: Dead Electrical
On Tue, 5 Apr 2016 10:20:37 -0700, "Snuffy \"Hub Cap\" McKinney"

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I just had a similar thing happen to my old Case backhoe. I turn the
key and the solenoid only clicks. Checking the voltage at the starter
when I try to start it the voltage dropped to about 2 volts. I
suspected that the starter motor had shorted out internally. I was
gonna pull it to test it and then my son gets down low so he can see
the bottom of the starter. He found that the heavy copper strip that
goes from the solenoid to the starter motor had been bent such that it
was touching the motor housing. So there was my short and it only
occurred when I attempted to start the backhoe. I figure a branch must
have somehow poked its way up far enough to hit the starter motor when
I was using the machine in the woods the other day.
Eric

Re: Dead Electrical
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stopped.  Next turn solenoid clicked only.  After that no sound on  
turning key.   No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.  
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fully charged.  Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.
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diagrams show them but do not tell where to look for them.  I assume  
close to the battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a  
meter.
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Thanks Eric.  I'll check that here today.  I replaced the solenoid &  
starter last week.  Always careful with connections but as the wife  
says, I don't always notice everything....



Re: Dead Electrical
Out of the blue, I turned the ignition key and the started jerked and  
stopped.  Next turn solenoid clicked only.  After that no sound on  
turning key.   No radio, panel lights, headlights, etc.  

My guess at this point is that there is a bad negative ground.

No ongoing symptoms before today.  Battery is new and checks out as  
fully charged.  Voltage OK at the solenoid relay on the inside wall.

Searched last night for a main fuse or fusible links.  Wiring diagrams  
show them but do not tell where to look for them.  I assume close to the  
battery -- will spend some time now looking and TS with a meter.

Any other suggestions?  Thanks in advance.

===

Update from today....

I turned the key this morning and it started right up.  When I got back  
home, I turned it off and on a few times and started each time without  
hesitation.

This morning the clock showed 5:30.  When power is restored, the clock  
starts at 12:00.  This means that the power was restored to the clock  
about the time I stopped troubleshooting yesterday.  Last thing I did  
yesterday before locking it up was try to start it and all was dead,  
including panel, radio, lights, etc.  Unless slamming the door jiggled a  
connection, I don't know what would have caused it. It would not be a  
heat-related problem because the engine was never started that day.

I don't want to go driving around town not knowing what the problem is  
but I'm stumped now.

So I  guess what I'm looking for is some things to check the next time  
it won't start.


Re: Dead Electrical
Had something similar happen to a car.  The battery was fine, the car wouldn't start.  Turned out the battery cable had corroded below the battery where it didn't show - maybe got some acid drip from the battery?  I dunno.  

Anyway, the way we found it was checked voltage under load.  There was plenty at the battery but not at the end of that wire.  

Re: Dead Electrical
Cap@Livebait-McKinney.com says...
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started that day.
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sure sounds like rusted body joints. Lots of cars depend on the body  
being very connected for the ground. the Door slamming gives it away.


Jamie


Re: Dead Electrical
You need you wife or girlfriend or someone to turn the ignition key on and  
off while you check the voltage at the battery itself, and then going away  
from the battery to the chassis on the negative side and if ok those two pl
aces, go from chassis ground to the hot lead  down the line from the batter
y toward the load.  It must be either that the battery voltage drops under  
load, or that there is a high resistance somewhere in the circuit.  You get
 to play Dick Tracy to find it.

Re: Dead Electrical
On Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:48:45 -0700, hrhofmann wrote:

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Let's just hope for his sake it's not an intermittent fault (as it's  
beginning to sound like) - they can make any fault 10x harder to find.


Re: Dead Electrical
On 4/5/2016 3:48 PM, snipped-for-privacy@att.net wrote:
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   Just to expound on the key off and on. If indeed the solenoid pulls  
in, THEN is when you need to find the fault, current needs to flow to  
find to find the bad connection. If you have 0.06 ohms of resistance
in a battery/starter circuit and the starter tries to draw 200 amps,  
there is 12 volts dropped across your battery connection.*
  You won't be able to measure 0.06 ohms.
                                       Mikek

  * yes, I'm aware if you have 0.06 ohms of resistance at the battery  
connection the starter can't draw 200 amps, but...

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