Can electrolytic capacitors get loose wires inside?

Three things:

a) Modern caps do not have 'wires inside'. The do have connection(s) betwee n the foil and the connecting wires that can go flaky - but those are all-o r-nothing situations. b) The buzzer comes on when the input voltage approaches, then drops below the trigger voltage for the inverter. So, if your battery voltage drops bel ow whatever that is - first inverter will buzz, then AC-out will stop. \ c) So it appears that you may have tossed that other inverter because you m istook the buzz for an inverter problem, not a battery problem. It also app ears that you do not understand the concept of 'system'.

An inverter is one half of a system, the other half being the battery. Both need to be in good condition for the entire *System* to operate properly. Now, some inverters will drain a battery dead before stopping. And, it appe ars that your 300 watt unit is such a beast. Accordingly, you are sulphatin g your battery killing sooner rather than later. Even a Marine-grade deep-d ischarge battery does not want to go below 50% of charge on a repeated basi s, 70% being better.

Now, comes the math:

Amps is amps. Watts is watts. Volts is volts. Broadly speaking - volts x amps = watts.

120 watts = 1 amp at 120V 120 watts = 10 amps at 12V. One (1) amp for one (1) hour is one AMP-HOUR. The reality of battery perfor mance vs. CCA.

We are ignoring inverter losses - anywhere from 10% to 30% in the universe you inhabit.

The typical car battery is somewhere between 24 and 60 AH, some very fancy marine-deep-discharge batteries can be about 120 AH. That is from fully cha rged to *dead*.

Meaning that you do not want to run for more than half that time in reality .

If you are running at 120 watts, you are using ten (10) amps per hour (igno ring losses). In 1.2 hours you will be at 50% (24AH battery) assuming you s tarted with a peak-charged battery in good condition.

In two hours you will have caused irreparable damage to a 24AH battery. Yes , it will still work after a fashion - but never again at peak and never ag ain at full charge.

For a 60 AH battery, you get a whole three (3) hours before damage sets in.

Enjoy!

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

That tells me how the caps are connected internally, and although it's "all or nothing", I do wonder if jiggling it (tapping it) can make that connection make or break contact? This inverter is very simple, and I'm pretty confident I can fix it. I'll start by replacing that cap. If that dont do it, I may resolder every connection at least on that end of the board.

This simple inverter does not completely shut down when the battery voltage gets low. Instead it keeps shutting offn and on, till the battery gets so low that it shuts off completely. It did leave me stranded once, when it started to go off and on, in my car, when my battery was weak to start with. The car would not start. Fortunately a friend lived 2 blocks away, so I walked to his house and had him come and jump my car.

The battery used to test that other inverter was purchased 2 months ago, and was just charged, reading 14+ volts on my digital multimeter.

Although I could not find a schematic, I did find an owners manual for that one. The red LED on that one does different things. Low battery makes the red LED light up solid and the buzzer makes a steady sound.

What I am getting is flashing red, and beeping on-off alarm sound. The manual says that means the LOAD is too large. The load I was using was

80W (AC). Far from too large. It was working until I shut off this switch on the load. (ODD). Then that inverter went into that error mode and has remained that way ever since, even with no load. According to web articles, this is a common problem with this model. The circuit in this thing is very complex, and without a schematic, near impossible to trace. So, I think it belongs in my scrap box.

Rather than the cap leads being broken internally, I would suspect that they are broken in the holes of the PC board. Try a quick re-solder first. If it behaves the same, just replace them. Dan

On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 3:33:01 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@tubes.com wrote :

Note the interpolations. Again, your conception of things is massively flaw ed.

Yes. A start.

The one is not directly related to the other.

ow

below wh

14V measures the availability of a chemical reaction. If all six cells have unconsumed electrolyte, you will get 14V (13.6). But that voltage will sag to as low as 8V (from six cells) under load. This is where the flaw in you r understanding lies.

No. The load *size* is a function of the input voltage *UNDER LOAD*. If you can do (for round figures) 120 watts (10 A @ 12 V) of AC load at full batt ery charge, your maximum load at say.... 8V will be about 75 watts. And tha t is assuming that the battery has a steady-state capacity of 10A @ 8V. It will not. So, your alarms will trigger. Further, if your load is a motor - the starting surge will be up to 3X the steady state load.

Far from too large. It was working until I shut off this

Most inverters, even cheap ones, will re-set if fed from a properly charged battery at full voltage and THIS DOES NOT MEAN from a battery feeding from the alternator at full voltage. The wave-form from an automotive alternato r is chopped DC - there are no "smoothing caps". Inverters do not respond w ell to chopped DC. Nor do most alternators have the capacity to both run a car, run an inverter, and also charge a battery. Those would be highly spec ialized devices - our VW camper had such an alternator-and-inverter system, as well as a 200 AH deep-cycle marine battery as a second back-up to the r egular battery in the engine compartment.

One of these will tell you about your battery. A standard VOM will not. Not even my Fluke.

Again, you need to understand the entirety of your *SYSTEM* and what each p iece of information means. So far, you have proven that you do not understa nd even the most basic concepts.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

One more thing to add - even a "new" battery can be irreparably damaged by even a few excessive discharge cycles. Two cycles to below 40% on a standar d car battery - and it is toast. I am sure you did not purchase the $200 op tion (the correct battery for our VW was over $300. And worth every penny.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Pearls, swine.

--
Jeff-1.0 
wa6fwi 
http://www.foxsmercantile.com

Internals of an aluminum electrolytic capacitor are foil, and thin foil can sometimes break. The rapping on the can, however, puts stress mainly on a printed wiring board, NOT on internal foils. Look carefully, for cracks or bad solder joints, at or near the pressure-sensitive fault you've located.

Sometimes, fluxing and reheating all the solder joints is easier than getting a good (lens or microscope is helpful) look at them, but also look for cracks in the circuit board material, or nearby components.

Tapping with an insulated probe (chopsticks work fine) will sometimes locate an invisible fault. It could be almost any component, of course.

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote on 10/18/2017 4:34 PM:

40% of what exactly?

--

Rick C 

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, 
on the centerline of totality since 1998

I did resolder them. I carefully looked over the solder joints on the whole board. All looked ok, but a few were skimpy on the solder, so I resoldered them. I touched the cap leads just for the heck of it, even though they looked good. But it's quit working since then again. I should get my caps in the mail by the end of the week and will replace this one.

Below 40% of rated capacity on a conventional lead-acid battery starts the sulphation process. Each repeat, and the plates are further damaged, and the overall capacity further compromised.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

LOL!

John Wolcott, CT

How do you measure the current charge state?

--

Rick C 

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, 
on the centerline of totality since 1998

At least I'm not an arrogant f*ck like you, who replies to people asking serious questions and trying to learn things by attacking them...... But it's obvious that you think you are the almighty God in the electronics forums and YOUR words will always be the last words, becuase your ego is so low that you can only feel good about yourself by demeaning others.

PLONK

Heheeheh,... you're like Phil sans knowledge...

Do you even have any idea what "Plonk" means?

--
Jeff-1.0 
wa6fwi 
http://www.foxsmercantile.com

Rick:

There are battery load testers for that. And it is a function of chemistry, available current at a specified load and time. A fully charged battery wi ll deliver current into a given load at a given rate depending on the chemi stry of the battery. And that is a function of the area of the plates and t he specific design. Bigger batteries have larger plates. Batteries have dif fering admixtures to the lead plates, use different formulations to the aci d, have inhibitors to reduce sulphation and much more. All this figures in.

If you are curious, 'search the net'. I handing you fish at this point - yo u should learn to fish.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

If you were trying to learn anything - you would have been way ahead of this issue - but, no, you are looking for someone to confirm your warped view of reality. Learning is the furthest thing from your goal.

You will note that your first pass at any given question usually gets a straightforward answer. It is when you display invincible ignorance that things go off the rails.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

John/Jeff:

When I was growing up, Dorothy Parker was an infrequent, but memorable dinner guest at our family table. What is not well known is that Dorothy Parker and Gloria Swanson were friendly rivals - sometimes not so friendly.

Reported conversation between the two at a doorway:

Gloria to Dorothy, offering her first-passage: Age before beauty.

Dorothy to Gloria accepting the offer: Pearls before swine.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

I'm trying to engage you in a conversation. Saying things like you do is great, but there is not a good way to know the state of your car battery until it doesn't start the car, etc.

--

Rick C 

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, 
on the centerline of totality since 1998