U.S. Pat 6,366,028 LED Flashlight Circuit

In article , snipped-for-privacy@BulkingPro.com mentioned...

I'm puzzled by how a 1N4148 could help. This is a signal diode, not made for high current. So high current pulses should only make it a higher voltage drop, thus wasting more power. I would use a 1N5817 or other schottky diode that has low V drop at high current. One thing you might try is to parallel two 1N4148s to see if it helps reduce losses. If it does, then you should use a higher conductance, lower V drop diode.

As for patenting, you have to spend a sizable chunk of change to do it, and there's a very good chance that the method is already prior art, so not patentable. Or possibly it's already patented. And before you do try, you should thoroughly investgate the circuit to make sure it's really doing what you claim.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dar
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It won't work on this old browser (Netscrape 4.75). I used my other PC with IE and it worked fine. Thanks.

Reply to
ehsjr

In article , snipped-for-privacy@BulkingPro.com mentioned...

I built your circuit, with three minor diffs. I used a 47 uH inductor, which shouldn't make much diff. I used a 510 pF cap, not much diff. Also, I included a 0.1 uF byp cap across the batt. I was also gonna put a 47 uF across the batt, but I didn't get to that yet.

With one white LED (which is really a blue LED) instead, I get 47 mA at 1.5VDC. When I short across t he 1N4148, the current jumps up to

57 mA, and the LED gets appreciably brighter.

The circuit is drawing 70 to 85 mW total, which is less than the LED itself can handle. Figuring an efficiency of 67%, the total current for one LED should be about 160 to 180 mA. So it needs to have more power out to the LED to get it to its full brightness. The circuit needs lower Vce(sat) transistor for Q2. I'll try that later. The freq measured 187 kHz, which is okay. Most of my other circuits were under 100 kHz. I could get your circuit to toggle on and off at below

0.8Vdc, which is good and stable, no funnyness like the one I discussed earlier in this thread. I can crank it up to 2VDC, and it sucks over 100 mA, which is good, but the reason why it has to have a higher V is because the 2N4401 doesn't have low enough Vce)(sat) at high currents. I think your circuit would be better when operated from 2 AA cells, with a change in the resistors to keep the current down to maximum 30 mA to the LED.

The circuit I used quite a bit was the one on the left at

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I also used the one on the right, with the schottky and cap. With a NTE11 for the output tran, I can easily drive three LEDs and suck a half amp from the batt. Now, _that's_ a light! ;-)

Back to experimenting..

I put another 1k across R3 1k, and the total current jumped up to 80 mA, and the LED got substantially brighter. So this is a good way to get the Q2 to put out more. I shorted across the diode and the total current is almost 100 mA, which makes the LED put out a really bright beam. This is about where the LED should be run at, where it's putting out some serious light. ;-)

Thanks for the well-behaved circuit.

[snip]
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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dar

In article , snipped-for-privacy@BulkingPro.com mentioned... [snip]

I have the above meter, and I think it's a good buy - a hundred dollars for the kit. Or add $30 and get it assembled.

There are as many different looking inductors as there are capacitors. Some are obviously coils of wire on a core. Others look like blobs of dipped plastic, AKA gumdrops, with three or four colored dots on the top. Others have the values printed in letters, which can be cryptic until you begin to understand it. Like he said, some look like resistors, and they can be tricky because they may be wound with very fine wire, which gives them a certain resistance if you measure them with a DMM.

Some radiofrequency coils are just wire, which was wound on a dowel and then the dowel was removed. Sometimes the maker adjusted the coils at the factory by spreading the turns, so it looks like some kid got in there and messed things up. Or the coil may have wax poured over it to keep it from changing value.

And then there's _the_ ultimate coil, the TC, short for Tesla Coil. Don't even bring that topic up, you get those fanatics started and they'll never end! ;-) See URLs

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dar

wrote in

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I believe the thing that was happening with the LEDs that I have is that there was some capacitance across the LED. When I put the diode in series, it stopped behaving badly, and the efficiency of the simulated circuit doubled.

Also, oddly enough, the voltage between the LED and the diode got 'pumped up' similarly to what would happen if you had a cap/resistor in parallel in place of the LED.

This may just be some artifact of the blue LEDs I'm using (and simulating with.)

I didn't have any low vf diodes, so I couldn't try those. I haven't had any luck.

The patent comment was a joke... I was making fun of the fact that somebody patented the circuit you originally posted. :)

capacitance

Reply to
Robert Monsen

wrote in

uses

inductor.

I'm

the

get

think it

go

current

I found that the bypass cap didn't do anything at all. In the simulations, there was no energy getting transferred through it. Thats why I dumped it.

Must be some difference with the LEDs. When I breadboarded it, the opposite happened (ie, it got more efficient, and the LED brightened using the diode)

Are you soldering or using a solderless breadboard? I find that I get oscillations at a bit more than a MHz with the circuit as posted, at least according to my oscilloscope.

Unfortunately, if you increase the voltage to above the LED voltage, it doesn't oscillate. The voltage is increased by using the additional diode, so if you added in a couple of diodes, it might oscillate.

I don't have any low Vce sat transistors. The 2N4401 has a Vce(sat) of .75V at 50mA.

Maybe I'll try to get it working with n-mosfets or jfets. That might improve the efficiency as well.

BTW, its not really 'my' circuit, except for the diode, which you apparently aren't using. It is the one posted by mjolinor with a much smaller inductor...

Reply to
Robert Monsen

: > > Thank you Bob. I did discover that they were chokes/coils, : > > as I had suspected, but your explanation of their construction : > > and how they are formulated made it very clear. I now know : > > what to call them and how to find out what their ratings are : > > when I reverse-engineer a circuit. Incidentally, is there an easy : > > method for taking a reading on them to find out their value? : >

: > Yes, you can buy inductance meters. I've heard a rumor that this is a good : > one: : >

: >

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: >

: > If you have access to a signal generator, you can test them directly by : > observing the resonance frequency of a circuit with an inductor and a : > capacitor of known value, using the equation : >

: > L = 1/((2*PI*f)^2 * C) : >

: > There are also markings on them to tell you what their inductance value is. : > They use the same color scheme as resistors, except that the value depicted : > is in micro-henries (uH) rather than ohms. So, a 33uH inductor will be : > orange orange black, and then a color band for precision. There are other : > schemes for marking as well, see a book such as "Practical Electronics for : > Inventors" by Sherz at your library for more details on inductor markings. : > There are also websites that have this information. : >

: > Regards, : > Bob Monsen : : I have the above meter, and I think it's a good buy - a hundred : dollars for the kit. Or add $30 and get it assembled.

Aren't there any I can make for about $25? I am such a cheap-skate. ;-)

: There are as many different looking inductors as there are capacitors. : Some are obviously coils of wire on a core. Others look like blobs of : dipped plastic, AKA gumdrops, with three or four colored dots on the : top. Others have the values printed in letters, which can be cryptic : until you begin to understand it. Like he said, some look like : resistors, and they can be tricky because they may be wound with very : fine wire, which gives them a certain resistance if you measure them : with a DMM.

I had a few choke coils laying around that I had taken from some Apple II disk drive analog controllers. None of them gave any reading on the ohms scale. They are around 18 gauge solid wrapped around some kind of ring of unknown material painted yellow, with shrink-tube over the whole thing. The wires terminated at the same place on the ring but on opposite edges. Only 5/8" diameter and 3/8" thick, but fairly heavy.

: Some radiofrequency coils are just wire, which was wound on a dowel : and then the dowel was removed. Sometimes the maker adjusted the : coils at the factory by spreading the turns, so it looks like some kid : got in there and messed things up. Or the coil may have wax poured : over it to keep it from changing value.

I've seen these and wondered if they were a mistake, or placed there to trick people. So if the coils lose their shape, it can affect the circuit operation?

: And then there's _the_ ultimate coil, the TC, short for Tesla Coil. : Don't even bring that topic up, you get those fanatics started and : they'll never end! ;-) See URLs :

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:
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I won't say a word, except for this: Why would anyone make that a serious hobby?, and, I'd think as a junior high project it would have been fun, once, maybe. Gee, hope I didn't stir up anything. ;-)

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-) Web Site -

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Reply to
Bill Garber

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CORRECTION:

Actually, this is wrong. Its based on simulations.

When I put a wire across the diode, it does get a bit brighter, but the current goes way up, not proportional to the amount of brightness increase, so I guess its probably getting much less efficient, as in the simulations.

Again, in the simulations, the difference in efficiency with the diode was remarkable, going from 20% to above 60%. I'm still not sure if this is an artifact of the simulation. I guess I'll have to build a power meter again to measure it.

.75V

improve

apparently

Reply to
Robert Monsen

I've not looked at your circuit, but it might be "reverse recovery time". where a diode looks like a short circuit for a microsecond or so after the applied voltage changes, until the charge carriers get swept out of the diode junction (or something like that). It depends on the size/construction of the diode and small signal diodes are supposed to avoid or minimize it.

Or it could be the reverse breakdown voltage.

I don't trust a simulator get get either of these correct, off the shelf.

Mark Zenier snipped-for-privacy@eskimo.com Washington State resident

Reply to
Mark Zenier

In article , snipped-for-privacy@bellatlantic.net mentioned...

I went from 4.75, 4.79, 4.8 and finally got smart and d/l'd Mozilla. I was having trouble viewing some websites that used the newer html. So get rid of it, and d/l at

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It's free.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dar

uses

inductor.

The

I'm

the

AM

Found another one you may like to try, seems easy to get working, mind you it should be with 1 transistor 1 resistor and 1 inductor:)

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Next problem: If I want to put more than 1 LED on is it a circuit each. I have real difficulty actually putting figures on how much light there is particularly if I have two LEDs lit. I can easily fasten one LED to an LDR and get a comparative brightness for different voltage / current / frequencies / inductors but, for example if I parallel two LEDs then the current only goes up by a ma or so but both LEDs are obviously lit though each LED is slightly dimmer than it was with only one. How do I tell if the overall light output is more than it was with one LED?

Lots of variables and no solutions.

Reply to
Mjolinor

In article , Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dark Remover" mentioned... [snip]

I built a second one using BC337-25s for the two transistors, a 100 uH coil, and a few other resistance changes. It's well-behaved down to .75VDC, and puts out mucho light at 1.5VDC, using 105 mA total. The freq is a bit over 100 kHz. This is a good, decent circuit for driving a single LED. With surface mount parts, each LED could have its own circuit, and any number of LEDs could be added. I haven't seen a surface mount transistor equivalent to the NTE11, which can handle 5 Amps. The BC817 will do 2A, so it's not a bad choice. With the NTE11 or 2SD965 the circuit might be able to drive three LEDs in parallel.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dar

series,

in

Out of curiosity, I built a shunt around the diode controlled by a pushbutton, and scoped the junction at the inductor. With the diode, the scope looks just like the simulation. Without the diode, the scope looks completely different. So I'm guessing that, as you said, the LED simulation is simply wrong. On the scope, the only real difference is that the peak is higher with the diode, which makes sense, since the inductor has to bring up the voltage to cross two diode junctions instead of one.

Thanks for looking at this.

Regards, Bob Monsen

Reply to
Robert Monsen

In article , snipped-for-privacy@BulkingPro.com mentioned...

[snip]

[snip]

All the ones I'm building are soldered on a piece of predrilled board. Size is .8" by 1".

The white LEDs are always over 3V. Maybe I should try two LEDs in series. I did that on another one, with a red, green and yellow.

Well, according to the Fairchild data sheet, the Vce(sat) is .75V at

500 mA Ic, 50 mA Ib. But both of the values given are maximum, and those values are usually well over the typical values. I'd guess a third of that would be more typical.

But the 2N4401s are not as capable as some other really inexpensive transistors like the BC337 (PNP complement is BC327), or the BC639, which will do .8A and 1A. What does the job best is a transistor that has good beta holdup at high currents, so it will saturate with less base currrent, which wastes less total current.

And the best one for this is the 2SD965 or NTE11, which are good for 5 Amps.

Well, the problem is that you need 3 or more Volts to turn on an enh. mode FET, and you only have 1.5VDC. So you would have to make a starter circuit like the one here.

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This is fine for some circuit that's more complicated and expensive, but is too complicated for a flashlight. This circuit has a dozen or less parts, so it's just fine for the job. Some designs use a current sensor to keep from overdriving the LED, but that's not really necessary. See the second pic at URL
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I've built a lot of the circuits that have been posted, and I don't remember seeing it before. But great, it's a viable circuit design, without any funnyness. I think I'd try to get it to drive three LEDs with one of the above transistors, the 2SD965, and see how efficient it is.

I bought a bunch of 1N5817s from Mouser, but I'd like to get a bunch of the schottky used in that last URL, the 11EQS04, which is half the size of the 1N5817, and rated for a half amp.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dar

In article , snipped-for-privacy@BulkingPro.com mentioned...

Someone here showed me an easy way to find the current thru the LED. Put a 1 ohm resistor in series with the LED, and bypass the 1 ohm with a cap. Then just measure the millivolts across the 1 ohm to find the current.

I simulate the simulator, I solder some parts together to see if the simulator design deals with the Real World properly. ;-) BTW, sometimes I'm disappointed.

[snip]
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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dar

Simulators are very fast for doing simple things like this. Unfortunately, they let you down sometimes. The LED model on CircuitMaker that I was using really doesn't seem to model an actual device at all.

Regards, Bob Monsen

Reply to
Robert Monsen

In article , snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com mentioned...

[snip]

This is the original circuit that I used when I started experimenting with the white LEDs and V boost circuits. I added a byp cap across the battery. The problem I had was to get enough current from it to light the LED brightly. I found that with the 2N4401, about the best it would do was maybe 3 to 6 mA. The toroids I was winding were part of the problem, they had too many turns and too high DC resistance. And the toroid material wasn't good for below 1 NHz. Here's a similar circuit, in Japanese.

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***/2881/LED02.html

As I was just saying in the previous post, the easy way to do it is to put a 1 ohm, 1/4W resistor in series with each LED, and a bypass cap across that resistor. Then just measure the V drop with the DMM, and millivolts gives you the current in mA. Costs all of a penny and a half for the resistor. You can take it out or short it after you're happy with the current.

I paralleled the output transistor with a second transistor, added another coil, and another LED. Works fine, and puts out twice as much light. You can also put two LEDs in series across the coil.

The 2N4401 can't put out enough power at low voltage to drive more than about a single LED, so paralleling them for multiple LEDs is a way to 'cheat'.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dar

In article , snipped-for-privacy@BulkingPro.com mentioned...

Well, I guess that leaves you one choice. Warm up the smoldering iron. ;-)

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You'll be glad you did! Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't changed it:
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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, Dar

in

you

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That's it built and it draws 70ma @ 1.5 volt, plenty bright but the coil seems to be a bit critical. If I use a smaller ferrite it will saturate, if I use thinner wire and the same number of turns it is pretty crap. It seems to have to be about 1mm wire in order for the current to get up and it seems that the inductance doesn't need to be that high, 3 turns either side (6 in total) seems to be enough but 5 either side (as in the picture) seems best. It is also significantly better if you do 5 turns spread all the way round the toroid then the other 5 turns all the way round on top of the first winding. Better than 10 turns round the ferrite and a centre tap.

Reply to
Mjolinor

Some recommend winding them bifilar. Or trifilar, with two of the windings paralleled for the collector. That allows smaller wire, and makes it easier to wind.

The core material of the toroid is also important. I used the RFI suppressor sleeve off of keyboard and video cables for the toroid. I saw it in half with a ceramic tile saw, and sand it down flat on a piece of heavy sandpaper used for sanding floors. I usually get 100 uH with

10 to 12 turns of 24 gauge solid telephone wire. Different core materials may have 60 uH or as high as 180 uH with the same number of turns. They all work, tho.

But the nice thing about the circuit is you can parallel 2, 3, or more

2N4401s, to get more current. But it's just easier to put a single higher current transistor in there.
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