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Re: IEE or IEEE
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It's not TV these days (that was the 70's and 80's), it's computer
games. That, and the fact that the devices we used to disassemble and
fix (toasters, bikes, valve TVs, etc) have been replaced by items that
either can't be disassembled or can't be fixed because they are
intrinsically crappy. Until a kid has a "win" with fixing something,
they assume that it's beyond them to conceive and build anything new.

But the actual means by which TV and games kill innovation is that
they kill the imagination and the memory, not mainly time. If a kid is
cramming unnecessary visual memories night and day, that's incredibly
burdensome on the memory - which leaves too little brain power to save
simple technical facts, make observations, and to imagine what might
be. So those faculties all suffer. The best thing that ever happened
during my childhood was that our TV blew up when I was 8, and my
parents refused to replace it until I was 16.

Clifford Heath.

Re: IEE or IEEE
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They also have absolutely no clue about resource usage.  They
have no idea how much rom/ram/cpu will be required for code
they write.  And because they have no understanding of
hardware, it's extremely difficult to _teach_ them about
resource usage.

And if they ever need to use an Oscilloscope or Logic Analyzer
to determine if the problem with a prototype is hardware or
software, you may as well send them to the movies.

I remember working with one CS grad who tried to call some
assembly language routines from his Pascal source code.  The
assembly language routines expected parameters in registers,
and the Pascal compiler passed them on the stack.  Needless to
say, it didn't work.

I told him he needed to write assembly-language wrappers that
popped the parameters from the stack into the registers. His
response was:

  "What stack?"

  "What are registers?"

It wasn't that he didn't know that particular CPU or assembly
language, he didn't even understand the underlying concepts.  
I tried to explain it to him, but it was pretty much hopeless.
He eventually found another EE to write the assembly language
for him, and he went back to writing his Pascal program.

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  That's a decision
                                  at               that can only be made
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Re: IEE or IEEE

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The same sort of people who see no problem in passing an array by value.

Ian

--
Ian Bell

Re: IEE or IEEE
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The horror I had a few years back of trying to sort out why one calibration
function for a card was not working, involved a couple of us having to
backtrack through a mess of code dealing with FOUR calibration values, that
we traced back through the code and gave up at ten levels after -

        1/ Several instances of creating another local copy of the
           structure (of 4 ints)

        2/ Passing of the 4 parts of the structure or local copy by
           value, at least twice. (So we could guarantee any real updates
           of four values getting back up the chain).

        3/ Passing of FOUR addresses to each member of the structure
           or a local copy of it at least twice..

        4/ Only ONE instance of passing a pointer to a local copy of
           the structure.

At this stage NO processing had happened on any part of the data!
This was on a commercial shipped add-on card for a PC

We gave up and said we could not ship this product when we were not
happy with reliability of the code to perform its specified task.

--
Paul Carpenter          | snipped-for-privacy@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/ PC Services
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Re: IEE or IEEE

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I'm a CS major, been doing embedded systems for over 20 years now,
started before I got my degree in fact.  You should never pigeonhole
someone based on just one thing like that.

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Learned how to use an oscilloscope on the job, from watching the EEs do
it.  Learned how to use a logic analyzer by playing with one for a while.

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Ah, if you are looking for someone fresh out of college, with no
experience, sure, I'd go with someone else.

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Those concepts were taught in the CS program I took.  I guess YMMV
depending on what school is in question.

--
Richard

Re: IEE or IEEE

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I am sure there are exceptions but when recruiting you just do not have the
time to find them.  Good engineering practice - go for the solution you
know is going to work in the quickest time at the lowest cost.

When our business was growing fast we always included CS qualified
candidates in our recruitment searches for embedded staff. I interviewed
many and not one of them had any real knowledge of hardware.  I only hope
things are changing.

Ian


--
Ian Bell

Re: IEE or IEEE

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They aren't.

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Did you move a lot
                                  at               of KOREAN STEAK KNIVES this
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Re: IEE or IEEE
@newsreader.visi.com:

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I don't doubt for a moment that on average, CS degreed applicants are far
less likely to have a clue about embedded systems, you just have to look
at their employment history as well in order to make the decision as to
whether to bother interviewing them or not.  Fresh out of college, no
question, EE would be likely to be better.

--
Richard

Re: IEE or IEEE

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And Computer Engineering would be even better.

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  OVER the
                                  at               underpass! UNDER the
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Re: IEE or IEEE

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Is there such a thing? Does it exist or is it common in the UK?  What does
it mean?

Ian

--
Ian Bell

Re: IEE or IEEE

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[...]
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My alma mater (in the US) offers the degree, though they didn't when I
was a student there.  From http://www.mtu.edu/engineering/compengg /:

   "As a computer engineering student, you'll study both computer
    science and electrical engineering topics, and learns how hardware
    and software interact with each other, how to make
    hardware/software trade-offs, and how to combine all of these
    technologies into a complete system. With this knowledge base, the
    computer engineer is uniquely qualified to conceive, design,
    build, program, and test innovative hardware/software systems to
    solve a wide variety of scientific and engineering problems."

[OK, the web page author needs to brush up on subject-verb agreement,
but you get the idea...]

I believe it was added to accomodate the growing number of students
who were studying for degrees in both CS and EE.  Sounds fairly
useful.

I can't speak for the UK...

Regards,

                               -=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.

Re: IEE or IEEE

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Oh, yes.  At my university where I was teaching we had CS, CE, and EE programs.
No idea about UK, though.  But in the US I think it's getting common.

Jon

Re: IEE or IEEE

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Was no such degree at the school I went to when I did.

--
Richard

Re: IEE or IEEE
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There have been accredited CprE programs in the US for about 25
years now.  I got My BS in CprE in '83, and there were several
classes before mine.  Like somebody else said, it was basically
a specialization in the EE program.  We only had to take one
semester of fields instead of two, we only had to take one
"power" class and we didn't have to do the motor-generator lab.
I think there were a couple analog/RF classes we didn't have to
take. Oh, and our first year we learned Pascal instead of
Fortran.

We did have to take more CS (compiler design, language theory,
data structures, Operating systems), and digitally-oriented EE
classes (computer architecture, microprocessor interfacing,
etc.).

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  My life is a patio
                                  at               of fun!
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Re: IEE or IEEE
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When I went to college I took Mathematics and Physics.  Computers
did not exist (well, one or two built around Williams tubes).  I
became an electronics engineer by osmosis.  This led to digital
circuitry, nucleonics, and adaptation to transistors when they
became available.  This in turn led to software in various flavors,
from applications to what would now be known as OS's and System
Software.  Almost everything later than a beam tetrode is
self-taught in the school of hard knocks - i.e. does it bloody well
work.  The point being that the fundamentals I learnt in school
have applied ever since, and still do.  The words of masters such
as Djikstra, Wirth, Ritchie, Kernighan, Hoare, Knuth (just to
snatch a few names from the void) have been influential.

--
Chuck F ( snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com) ( snipped-for-privacy@worldnet.att.net)
   Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
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Re: IEE or IEEE
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I remember having to rewrite from scratch an embedded application
written by an EE because it was so unreliable.  When I saw that it
read the keypad in 35 different places in the code, I realized it
couldn't be fixed; it had to be replaced.

I remember having to explain to an EE that things that generate
interrupts should go to an interrupt line on the microcontroller, not
to a GPIO, because it allows the software to be more responsive.

And then there was the EE who designed a system with two
microcontrollers because his grasp of software was so limited he just
assumed that a single processor couldn't do all of the necessary
tasks, which, of course, it could easily.

Yes, these are all true, and no, none of the above EEs were recent
college grads, they were "experienced," and yes, I'm a CS grad, and
yes, it's easy to generalize.

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Not only did we do assembly language in college, we had to write an
assembler in assembly language.  And it had to generate a working
executable.  That's been a while, though.

--
John W. Temples, III

Re: IEE or IEEE
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The last time I checked, you can become a registered
professional engineer in the U.S. without a degree but
it requires many years of experience to qualify.

A non-degreed engineer designing a microwave system is
probably a poor choice for an example.  The professional
registration laws in the U.S. are concerned with public
safety.  If the microwave doesn't work because the
engineer doesn't know the basics, no harm, no foul as
far as the public is concerned.  There's very little
that's done in the electronics world that requires a
licensed engineer's signature before it can be loosed
on the public.

Re: IEE or IEEE
Hi Everett,

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It depends on where the microwave link is used. If it is air traffic
control that can become dangerous. We just had that happen although for
other reasons. The western system for high altitude conked out. That
made for some close calls and lots of stranded passengers.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Re: IEE or IEEE
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Age is not a bar to getting C.Eng. To be too old you would have to be
dead.

Not competent/ senile etc  is not a function of age.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ snipped-for-privacy@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Re: IEE or IEEE

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I think we are talking at cross purposes.  I understand the requirements for
C.Eng. but someone mentioned this will/maybe superceded by licensing which
is not the same thing.

Ian

--
Ian Bell

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