8-bit OS sought

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Which freely available ( at least for educational use) 8-bit OS is
best for networking and graphic API?

Geos?
Contiki?

Can ELKS or minix be modified enough, or is there something simple
with a large selection of commands available (like ELKS, minix or even
DOS)?

The idea is to build a very simple little computer with an AVR or a
large PIC, able to connect with TCPIP via serial or a NIC chip, and
interface with an LCD and keyboard. Anything flexible enough can be
used. Whats the best OS for hobby complex 8-bit computers?

Re: 8-bit OS sought
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com (Ghazan Haider) wrote :

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looks the best

Pozdrawiam.
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Re: 8-bit OS sought

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Without at least 1 MByte of memory space it will be hard
to cram an OS in. A tiny LCD display, say 8x40,
a key board, a serial is doable, but also having a
commandline interpreter doing something except interprete,
eg copy, start a preinstalled app ... have a file system
...

Rene
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& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

Re: 8-bit OS sought

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This is blah. Do you know how *much* one MB is?

Go back in time, there are many many examples of completely functional
operating systems that fit in a fraction of a megabyte.

 S.

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Absolutely. My first job was on a PDP-11 with 96Kb, running version 7
Unix with four concurrent users (including a real-time device using a
driver I write). I could sit in the other room compiling C programs
on one 2.5Mbyte hard disk while the other users got busy on the other
and didn't even notice.

We've just built some web services using C# and DotNET, and a simple
ping-type RPC on a 3.2GHz Pentium 4 with 2Gb of RAM takes 33 seconds
to call 100 times. That's about a *billion instructions* just for a
remote procedure call guys.... Get real! People have forgotten how
to program.

Re: 8-bit OS sought
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Megabyte is a foreign word to many (most?) embedded applications.
64K is a big number.

Re: 8-bit OS sought
snipped-for-privacy@mojaveg.iwvisp.com (Everett M. Greene) wrote in

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Commodore 64's and Apple ]['s ran Geos, a full mouse driven GUI system, on
1 Mhz 8 bit CPU's with about 48K available RAM (plus abou 16K of ROM).  It
could use expansion memory if available, but didn't need it.  Geos later
ran on unexpanded 8086 PC's, and lately became GeoWorks.  

http://commodore.ca/history/company/turks_geos.htm


Re: 8-bit OS sought
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:43:55 +1000, Clifford Heath

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Older PDP-11's with 18 bit physical addressing (max 248 KiB of memory)
certainly could support a few users on serial terminals.

To be fair, programs were loaded from disk and swapped out to disk,
when the memory became full. Programs also used disk based overlay
structures, so that each individual task could fit within the 64 KiB
address space. Adding DecNet and the Ethernet card(s) further reduced
the amount of memory available for applications.

Also truly 8 bit systems, such as Intellecs (8080) or Excorcisers
(6800) with max. 64 KiB of memory heavily relied on loadable programs
and program overlays (at last the compilers).

The OP wanted a TCP/IP stack, which requires some buffering for
realistic performance. A bit mapped LCD even with black and white
colours only may require more than 10 KiB of memory for the bit map. A
few KiB is required for the character generator tables (these tables
were in the character generator ROMs on VDUs or the character forms
were integrated into the printer daisy wheel).

An 8 bit processor is typically only capable to easily access up to 64
KiB of memory, so fitting a stand-alone system is quite a challenge.

Of course, if the TCP/IP requirement is dropped and only raw Ethernet
or UDP frames are used on the network and a PC etc. with some disk
space, is used as a virtual mass storage device, the 64 KiB would be
enough. Loading programs or overlay segments from the PC file server
using UDP requests could be  a nice replacement for floppy disks in
old systems :-).

Paul
  

Re: 8-bit OS sought
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The idea is for a usable standalone 8-bit system with an OS to be
created. Possibly something like the commodore64, on which I used to
program basic, but I had simpler unix types in mind like minix, elks,
qnx, at least the interface. I'd take a DOS for 8-bit systems with
enough commands to make the system usable for loading/saving programs,
transferring data to another system, maybe with kermit if not tcpip,
making simple scripts like basic...

So I'd give up TCPIP if it comes with a good kermit type program, and
if the interface allows programs to be loaded/saved from another
storage. A very ancient UNIX could be compiled for it, but I'm testing
waters for something in common modern use for embedded systems.


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Re: 8-bit OS sought
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The first OS I'm aware of was on a 8086 with an adress
space of 1MB, well, only 640k was useable if plugged in.
Drivers, interpreter, communication, perhaps a compiler,
all in 128k with 8k RAM is a bit tight.

Rene

Re: 8-bit OS sought

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Rene, you aren't listening.  We aren't talking about the first
OS you are aware of.  We are telling you that you are unaware of
the many, many OSs that run great on 8-bit 64K systems.



Re: 8-bit OS sought
says...
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The first Macintosh OS ran from 64K of ROM and used 128K of
RAM for applications.  No TCIP or NIC, but it did have a
keyboard,  display, and disk storage.


Mark Borgerson



Re: 8-bit OS sought


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The Commodore 128 does amazing things with 128K of RAM, a
48K OS and an 8-bit processor (2MHz 8502 / 4 MHz Z80).



Re: 8-bit OS sought
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All of the early computer manufacturers wrote operating
systems that ran in less than 1 meg.


Re: 8-bit OS sought
says...
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Yes, but how many of them got a GUI into 128K RAM and
64K of ROM?   ;-)


Mark Borgerson

Re: 8-bit OS sought
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I don't remember the details, but I've seen a PDP 15 doing
some amazing stuff with a vector display and a spark pen
with a lot less memory.  But it probably was an ap, not the
os that was doing it.

Re: 8-bit OS sought

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Have you shopped for a cellphone lately? :)

If you mean a GUI when introduced, that's an unfair question.
Most of the 8-bit systems  were introduced prior to VisiOn (1982)
MacOS Lisa version (1983), MacOS (1984), GEM (1984) or Windows 1.0
(1985) - the first commercial GUIs.

In the years since then, just about every popular 8-bit
64K system has had some sort of GUI written for it.

You might be interested in reading this:
http://www.landley.net/history/mirror/gui.html



Re: 8-bit OS sought

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One MiB of core memory required at the end of core era a toll rack of
memory boxes. Previously, several racks would have been required.

Paul
 

Re: 8-bit OS sought


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You guys are making me feel old.  I used full-featured operating systems
(except for the eye candy) that ran in less than 16K words (32Kbytes) of
RAM (no ROM -- you booted using front panel switches) off a 2MB 14-inch
hard disk for years before the microprocessor became truly useful as a
"computer", as opposed to a "programmable controller".

HP's RTE series
DEC's RTOS series
Data General's ??
XDS
General Automation

These all had hierarchical filesystems, multi-user terminal ports, line
printers, a range of hard disks, FORTRAN compilers, BASIC interpreters,
etc., etc.

And no, I wouldn't like to go back to those days.  I like what I'm doing
now.

John Perry
AS&M

Re: 8-bit OS sought


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When I started, the computers all ran on steam.  We lost many a good
coder to boiler explosions in those days.  We didn't have any fancy
"gooeys" either; just ones and zeros.  I remember the great zero
shortage of ought-nine - I had to write an entire real-time operating
system using only ones.  Then I had to port it to COBOL.



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