Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars. - Page 10

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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
says...
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This is quite simply bullshit.  Aluminum used to be so damn expensive  
that the tip of the Washington Monument is made of the stuff.  Now it's  
do damn cheap that beer cans and soda cans are made of it.  Why?  
Because the technology used to make it literally changed.  But don't  
take my word for it:

http://www.aluminum.org/aluminum-advantage/history-aluminum

I'm not an expert on plastic prices, but it sure seems like kids these  
days have a lot more, and bigger, damn cheap plastic toys than when I  
grew up.  Hell, even some storage sheds are made of the stuff today.  I  
sure don't remember any plastic storage sheds when I was a kid.

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The speed of any casting, injection, machining, and etc. method is too  
so I don't see your point.  Besides, these things are computer  
controlled, so you can start printing and come back when the thing is  
done.  It's not like you have to babysit the thing 24/7.
  
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Baking bread or making biscuits from scratch is a time consuming, labor  
intensive, p.i.t.a.  I don't think downloading a file from the Internet  
and hitting "print" on the 3D printer is as difficult, but I guess  
that's my opinion.  
  
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As with product you can buy, the $200 models aren't that great.  But the  
technology is improving every year so that better machines are becoming  
more affordable.  That's the trend.  Just like every other technology  
which goes from its infancy to maturity.  Looking at the trends in the  
industry (e.g. aerospace, which is what I follow) 3D printing still has  
not reached its full potential, IMHO.  

Jeff
--  
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.  
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,  
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Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 5:09:54 PM UTC-7, Jeff Findley wrote:
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It's easy to melt aluminum (700C) in factory.  I don't think too many people want to do it at home.  Think of all the heating and then cooling cost.

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Just ordered one to build plastic prototype.  Not going to use 3D printing for aluminum, steel or titanium.  

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 03:08:11 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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That's funny. You'd rather pay full retail for something than a few units of electricity?


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 04:00:50 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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Than have my own aluminum smelter?  You bet!  I don't have a ceramics
kiln, either.

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 13:58:47 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com  wrote:
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If in many years time I can have a machine that prints aluminium into all sorts of goods using nothing but empty cans, I'll pay the 3 units of electricity.


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:59:27 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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Three GWh?


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 23:13:33 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com  wrote:
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Last time I checked it didn't take 3GWh to melt a few dozen ali cans. What are you thinking of building with that much, a national fleet of buses?


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 01:44:40 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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You said "three units".  GWh is a "unit".


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Thursday, 20 July 2017 01:18:21 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com  wrote:
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Ah. Electricity here is sold in kWh, known across the nation as 'units'


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 4:01:00 AM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Yes, i am buying some 8" 1mm aluminum disks for $2.  At 20 cents per kilowatt for electricity, i bet it would be much more to do it myself, even if materials and my labors are free.

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 21:52:47 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:
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I.e. you don't know. $2 buys 10 units at that price. I find it a bit hard to believe it would take 10 units to melt such a small amount of ali, but I haven't calculated it either.


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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Yes, it changed about a hundred years ago and has not change significantly
since then.

The name for this phenomena is "mature technology".

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Again, mature technology.

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The point is 3D printing is slow and basic physics says there is not
much that can be done to speed it up significantly.

Yep, if it is a hobby, it doesn't really matter if the whole print job
turns to shit in the middle of the process.

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Yep, hobby printing some plastic trinket is about the same level of  
difficulty and it is obvious you have never done any baking.
  
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3D printing is over 30 years old and getting close to being a mature
technology for anything that would ever be used at home.


--  
Jim Pennino

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
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That's not true.  Some printing methods are already significantly faster than  
others.   It's possible to scale up 3D printing merely by running multiple print  
heads in parallel.

No one does this yet, AFAIK, because it's expensive; but the whole poin t of  
technology is that it gets better, faster, and cheaper with time.

If you're still going to claim that "basic physics" will never allow a  
reasonable speed, you're going to have to be a lot more specific, if you want to  
remain credible.

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Which will happen less and less.  You can also compare it to current home  
printing technology - yes, paper jams and other problems do occur; but that  
doesn't stop millions of people having printers.

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I have, and it's a lot more than pressing a button, unless you use a breadmaker;  
which I do, kind of proving my point.

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Aren't you agreeing with us now?

3D-printing is, IMO, about where ordinary printing was a couple of decades ago,  
black-and-white, expensive, not that fast.

Compare it to printing now, full-colour, a lot faster and cheaper.


Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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And still be nowhere as fast as casting, molding, or stamping by orders
of magnitude.

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Nonsense.

How much better, faster, and cheaper has the pencil become since it's
invention in the 16th century?

Some technology gets better, faster, and cheaper with time and some is
pretty near mature shortly after it's invention.

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Accuracy depends on deposition size. Depositon size determines total
depostition time. Wait time between layers is limited by the hardening
time of the last layer.

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Apples and oranges and irrelevant.

If it is a hobby, it doesn't really matter what happens, how long it takes,
what it costs, or if it is worth anything to anybody.

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And yet few people these days have breadmakers since the fad is over.

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Color printing goes back a lot farther than that and is still not very
fast for consumer grade printers.

A couple of decades ago there were color printers whose feed was a truck
with a roll of paper backed up to the printer and that printed so fast
that the paper needed cooling to prevent it from bursting into flames.

Consumer printers got cheap because they have limited capabilities and
can be mass produced by methods like injection molding and stamping of
component parts.

--  
Jim Pennino

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 19:31:10 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com  wrote:
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There are other ways to speed it up too that are known today. And it's far from a mature technology.

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I'm no expert on pencils, but if the wiki section on pencil history is anything to go by: hugely cheaper, hugely better, hugely faster to make.  

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Today we don't have different size jets selectable on the fly. That will likely change.

Today we don't have the ability to print onto preexisting generic blanks or semirandom lumps of material. That will likely change.

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which depends on printer temperature, airjets, types of plastic of which more are discovered over the years, etc

Your argument that 3d printers can't improve significantly is completely and utterly unsupportable.


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
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They can reasonably be expected to become as fast as they need to be for home  
use.  I don't need a replacement knife in 1/10 second; if could have one in five  
minutes, that'd be fast enough.

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I think "the pencil" is pretty much a straw man here.  Fabrication technology  
has already shown it's in the "continually improving" category.

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Some technologies are better than others, and not all technologies are  
realistically constrained by those factors you describe.

http://www.popsci.com/fastest-3-d-printer-ever

"The result is 25 to 100 times faster than conventional printing. It also works  
with more materials, including the entire polymer family, and at a higher  
resolution than competitors, which build objects in layers?making CLIP ideal for  
custom commercial manufacturing. Now Carbon, the company DeSimone co-founded  
with chemist Ed Samulski, is partnering with BMW, Johnson & Johnson, and others  
to do just that."

https://all3dp.com/1/worlds-fastest-3d-printer-speed-3d-printing/

"The BAAM was used to manufacture the first (almost) fully 3D printed car, the  
Strati, for together with Local Motors. With a deposition rate of up to 38 lbs  
of material per hour, it is possibly the fastest machine currently on the market."


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Not really, it's an operation which people initiate with a few simple actions,  
but which might take significant time, which most people then leave to complete.
Occasional snafus occur; which appears to be something you think is relevant;  
but people still use printers despite this.

I think the relevance is pretty clear.

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Indeed, possibly because they're single use machines, and not very good.

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It's fast enough.  Nine pages/minute.

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So the technology is getting better?  Who would have thought.

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Their capabilities include quickly and accurately placing varying materials on a  
2-D surface which is how some kinds of fabricators work, and they've improved  
from "feedstock might catch fire" to cheap, fast and reliable.

I think you're making my point.

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

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Pencils that don't need to be sharpened are only about a century old.
(Electronics company Sharp started that way.)

When I was a kid, my mother had one that cost $18 and took a minute or
so to withdraw a new lead into its body.  Other than lacking the
magnet (hers could be stuck onto stuff for convenient access), better
pencils are now about the price of six wooden pencils.  I haven't
sharpened a pencil other than on an "emergency" basis for 45 years.

Pencils were a nickel when I was a kid and a dime now.  Since I was a
kid, the value of that dime has decreased tenfold.  So pencils are now
five times cheaper than in the sixties.  I assume technology did it.
(Perhaps containerized TRANSPORT technology to bring us the product of
chinese semi-slaves.)
--  
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
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They are a different thing but they haven't changed much since invention
either.

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Mass production in huge quantities by automated traditional manufacturing
techniques and cheap shipping from China.


--  
Jim Pennino

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 03:31:11 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com  wrote:
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I've already explained one of the ways how that doesn't stop it getting cheaper. There are others too, such as business getting ever more financially efficient over time.


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Which bit of physics prevents the use of many nozzles again?


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whoosh


It is so far from mature technology. It's trivial to see some of the ways it can improve greatly.


NT

Re: Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

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http://tinyurl.com/y8stp6jc
http://www.robinhood.ca/Recipes/Bread-Machine
--  
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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