Controlled Outlets

you are still going to use at least the same 150kWh/yr probably more to catch up, so the only potential saving is price difference

how much is the price difference?

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 11:40:07 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@nospam.org w rote:

h, that seems worth getting on the low cost side of the

the devices I might use for this, lots of criticism has

r relays.

at a lower price.

anually defrost the deep freeze part.

f your controller back.

Why on earth would I want to build such a device??? They exist by the doze ns if not hundreds!!! I was asking about other people's experience with th em... as in, I tried this one and it had that problem... another one was fi ne... sort of thing. I actually thought Jeff might have had experience wit h these as he often does similar things and has others who get him involved when something doesn't work out.

I have ordered two different units. One is the Ankuoo NEO PRO Wi-Fi Smart Switch with a 15 amp capability and current monitoring. The other is a fou r pack of the Meross WiFi Smart Plug Mini which is a basic switch with 15 a mp capability. The Meross lists the chip inside and it is a MIPs processor with WiFi circuitry running Linux. Maybe I can do a little experimenting and boot my own code on it.

Rick C.

ah, that seems worth getting on the low cost side of the

f the devices I might use for this, lots of criticism has

r,

"Cost nearly nothing"... really? The units I am trying are only $10 to $17 apiece. Hard to beat that. Often I do it the other way. Rather than bui ld something from the ground up I buy something at a low price and do some mods to improve the functionality.

One thing I am not clear about is the protocol used to control these things . While many of them are compatible with various controllers like the assi stants (Alexa, etc.) at a lower level they all seem to be different with th eir own apps to control them from phones. I don't get why everyone would w ant to reinvent the wheel and it limits compatibility with various controll ers.

Rick C.

That is where the ESP8266 could come in. ESP8266 modules are around $1.50 a piece and I see switch modules (ESP8266 driving a relay) for about $3 a piece on aliexpress.

Of course in practice you may need a housing, outlet, power cable etc which will drive the cost up. Solid state relay also tends to be a bit more expensive.

ESP8266 can be programmed as if it is an Arduino, so many library modules are available to quickly build some IoT device that controls a relay or does some sensing. A smart timer should be easy.

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ah, that seems worth getting on the low cost side of the TOU curve.

Significant...

B. Electricity Supply Service Charges: All On-Peak kWh- June-September @ $0.34476 per kWh All On-Peak kWh- October-May @ $0.17273 per kWh All Off-Peak kWh @ $0.03827 per kWh

This is on top of a distribution charge of 3.3 to 4.7 cents above and below 300 kWh respectively. At $0.35 per kWh, I want to cut back usage as much as possible during peak times.

Joerge was right in that the best way to do this is in the fridge, but I've not heard of one that supports that and it would probably be a $1,500 mode l anyway wiping out any operational cost savings like the mechanical timer. I likely could save a bit more by disconnecting the defrost timer.

Rick C.

gnuarm wrote

Not with GPS

This is a design group.

I am with Joerg, you just random along.

Not the first time.

Yeah, that seems worth getting on the low cost side of the

y of the devices I might use for this, lots of criticism has

ator,

$17 apiece. Hard to beat that. Often I do it the other way. Rather than build something from the ground up I buy something at a low price and do s ome mods to improve the functionality.

It also needs a 5 volt power supply which is the part that has to be very r eliable and RFI quiet, etc... in other words, the hard part. Not going to use a piece of Chinese crap for that so the price will end up higher than t he $10 for the cheap units from Meross which are likely also programmable. The Ankuoo unit even measures the load current and handles more than the t ypical 10 amp loads. :)

Rick C.

how much of the time is "On-peak"

How is GPS of any value???

All the random crap is coming from YOU!

Rick C.

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Yeah, that seems worth getting on the low cost side of the TOU curve.

to

Summer - 4 months

I didn't realize they don't have peak on weekends. That makes it easier.

Rest of year is more hours, split... weekdays between the hours of 6:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m., and between 5:00 p.m . and 8:00 p.m. excluding Memorial Day, Thanksgiving Day, and New Year? ??s Day

This will be harder on me, but not so hard on the fridge, 3 hours twice vs. 4 hours once.

Rick C.

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 5:15:14 AM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot e:

rote:

an S instead of a U?) and want to automate turning off certain devices. Lo oking at switched outlets I found a number of devices that use a manual rem ote, some number of devices that work via wifi and so can be controlled by an android or possibly a PC. Those being controlled by a "smart" agent mos tly only are rated for 10 amps. I don't want to have to worry about what I plug into these things, so I am looking for 15 amp devices.

ave to get past the router and WISP modem.

refrigerator which I won't want to turn off for days when I am away.

ming. Not only are there many, many devices to choose from, there are many , many web sites with "reviews" and various forms of advice, often rather d ifferent.

on't want to deal with having to worry about peak current vs average curren t of a device being controlled, so I want the controller to at least handle a 15 amp load. I don't see power consumption specs on any of these. It i s important to me that the controller not use more power than I might save by using it.

. I haven't found one yet that works with a PC, all the apps are for smart phones. None explain if the controller is capable of remembering the sche dule or if it depends on the app to control the controller at a low level, turning it on and off at each scheduled time. This is important to me beca use I may not be there with my phone at the time it needs to switch. Then there is the memory in the controller, will it remember a schedule when pow er fails? Will it come back up with the device on or off?

er issues I have not considered as yet. I could buy one and connect it to something not operationally critical to see how it performs with all the gl itches and power cycles in a real world setting. It doesn't look like anyo ne here has experience with these things since the Internet was invented.

The 150KWh sounds rather optimistic.

Here is an example of a GE 17cuft fridge

It is estimated to consume ~400kWh/year.

A side by side 29cuft one similar to what I have is ~850kWh/year.

This is not in the noise compared to an EV consumption - it is equivalent t o over 2500 miles/year in a car such as a Tesla Model 3 or Nissan Leaf..

Depending where you live it may be small compared to heating/cooling electr ical consumption. In my case by a factor of 3.

In addition to the many controlled outlets that are available for very reas onable cost there are also a handful of system controllers that not only pr ovide battery backup but also internet connectivity with smartphone apps.

I use a Samsung Smartthings module that is available for ~$50. The protocol used provides acknowledgment so the reliability is far better than the old X-10. I replaced my X-10 system because of that. There are many ways of se tting up control whether it be based on time, or in response to stimuli fro m other sensors and can be monitored and controlled from anywhere with inte rnet connectivity.

kevin

ote:

y an S instead of a U?) and want to automate turning off certain devices. Looking at switched outlets I found a number of devices that use a manual r emote, some number of devices that work via wifi and so can be controlled b y an android or possibly a PC. Those being controlled by a "smart" agent m ostly only are rated for 10 amps. I don't want to have to worry about what I plug into these things, so I am looking for 15 amp devices.

have to get past the router and WISP modem.

a refrigerator which I won't want to turn off for days when I am away.

elming. Not only are there many, many devices to choose from, there are ma ny, many web sites with "reviews" and various forms of advice, often rather different.

don't want to deal with having to worry about peak current vs average curr ent of a device being controlled, so I want the controller to at least hand le a 15 amp load. I don't see power consumption specs on any of these. It is important to me that the controller not use more power than I might sav e by using it.

on. I haven't found one yet that works with a PC, all the apps are for sma rt phones. None explain if the controller is capable of remembering the sc hedule or if it depends on the app to control the controller at a low level , turning it on and off at each scheduled time. This is important to me be cause I may not be there with my phone at the time it needs to switch. The n there is the memory in the controller, will it remember a schedule when p ower fails? Will it come back up with the device on or off?

ther issues I have not considered as yet. I could buy one and connect it t o something not operationally critical to see how it performs with all the glitches and power cycles in a real world setting. It doesn't look like an yone here has experience with these things since the Internet was invented.

.pdf).

to over 2500 miles/year in a car such as a Tesla Model 3 or Nissan Leaf..

trical consumption. In my case by a factor of 3.

Thanks for the info, but whether it is large or small compared to other thi ngs is only important if I am using those other things. Right now my elect ric usage is minimal since I am not running the AC. The issue is do I want to pay several times more $$$ to run the fridge during peak times or do I want to let it idle and run during the off peak times where rates are much lower. While the fridge may cost $48 to run at an average $/kWh cost, it w ill be a *lot* more if running at the several times higher peek rate. Also , this assumes I am running a late model fridge which I am not. I could sc rap my old unit and from what I've read would save enough to pay for the fr idge in a very few years.

asonable cost there are also a handful of system controllers that not only provide battery backup but also internet connectivity with smartphone apps.

ol used provides acknowledgment so the reliability is far better than the o ld X-10. I replaced my X-10 system because of that. There are many ways of setting up control whether it be based on time, or in response to stimuli f rom other sensors and can be monitored and controlled from anywhere with in ternet connectivity.

Most of the systems today are WiFi and a few Bluetooth. The WiFi units can be controlled over the Internet I believe, but I haven't looked into that in detail. I've spent all of $60 on a handful of controllers and will be d igging into those to see how well they work and what the limitations are.

I appreciate the info. This is what I was hoping to find, other's experien ces.

Rick C.

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 2:35:00 PM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com w rote: ....

hings is only important if I am using those other things. Right now my ele ctric usage is minimal since I am not running the AC. The issue is do I wa nt to pay several times more $$$ to run the fridge during peak times or do I want to let it idle and run during the off peak times where rates are muc h lower. While the fridge may cost $48 to run at an average $/kWh cost, it will be a *lot* more if running at the several times higher peek rate. Al so, this assumes I am running a late model fridge which I am not. I could scrap my old unit and from what I've read would save enough to pay for the fridge in a very few years.

On the EV rate plan in PG&E land (SF bay area) the peak time usage (2pm-9pm ) costs 40cents/kWh.

Nightime 11pm-7am is ~10cents

The rest of the time it is ~25cents

...

an be controlled over the Internet I believe, but I haven't looked into tha t in detail. I've spent all of $60 on a handful of controllers and will be digging into those to see how well they work and what the limitations are.

Usually you don't communicate with the outlet directly - you go via a hub (such as the Smartthings). The hub communicates with a server at the hub ve ndor (some charge a monthly fee, Samsung doesn't).

This arrangement is necessary to get through the firewall and NAT, generall y only outbound connections are allowed unless you have a static IP address and specifically allow access to the devices. The hub also provides a cent ral management point and performs the control algorithms (and has the batte ries for backup in case of power failure).

To manually control a device (from inside or outside of your home) with an App you communicate with the server at the hub vendor. It seems a bit weird that the message may have to go thousands of miles to just get across the room but that is pretty much the only approach that can work without lots o f management of the router.

As you say the link from the hub to the outlets may be WiFi or Bluetooth. M ore common links are Z-Wave which is a mesh networking protocol running at ~900MHz or Zigbee (another mesh type) at 2.4GHz. The Smartthings supports t hose two. Many brand name ones such as those from Leviton are proprietary.

There are some low cost devices that use WiFI directly (I have a couple of Etekcity ones that need no hub and only cost ~$13 each. They communicate wi th a smartphone or Alexa/Google Home).

Many of the outlets also provide power and energy measurement capability as well as control, although I haven't seen an easy way of putting the measur ements into a database.

kevin

ences.

things is only important if I am using those other things. Right now my e lectric usage is minimal since I am not running the AC. The issue is do I want to pay several times more $$$ to run the fridge during peak times or d o I want to let it idle and run during the off peak times where rates are m uch lower. While the fridge may cost $48 to run at an average $/kWh cost, it will be a *lot* more if running at the several times higher peek rate. Also, this assumes I am running a late model fridge which I am not. I coul d scrap my old unit and from what I've read would save enough to pay for th e fridge in a very few years.

pm) costs 40cents/kWh.

Wow! That is expensive. What is the rate if you aren't on the EV plan? I s it at all mandatory if you charge an EV?

can be controlled over the Internet I believe, but I haven't looked into t hat in detail. I've spent all of $60 on a handful of controllers and will be digging into those to see how well they work and what the limitations ar e.

(such as the Smartthings). The hub communicates with a server at the hub vendor (some charge a monthly fee, Samsung doesn't).

Yeah, I haven't looked into the hub units. I've only looked at the ones th at can be controlled directly from the phone. Haven't found one with PC so ftware yet.

lly only outbound connections are allowed unless you have a static IP addre ss and specifically allow access to the devices. The hub also provides a ce ntral management point and performs the control algorithms (and has the bat teries for backup in case of power failure).

Interesting... not sure you have to have a hub to be reachable from the Int ernet.

n App you communicate with the server at the hub vendor. It seems a bit wei rd that the message may have to go thousands of miles to just get across th e room but that is pretty much the only approach that can work without lots of management of the router.

More common links are Z-Wave which is a mesh networking protocol running a t ~900MHz or Zigbee (another mesh type) at 2.4GHz. The Smartthings supports those two. Many brand name ones such as those from Leviton are proprietary .

f Etekcity ones that need no hub and only cost ~$13 each. They communicate with a smartphone or Alexa/Google Home).

That's very common. Do they loose their programming in a power fail?

as well as control, although I haven't seen an easy way of putting the meas urements into a database.

riences.

Thanks for your inputs.

Rick C.

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

You want to use controls based on their loading, and your desired "duty programming" method. With some, a simple timer without remote access or control would suffice. An item which is capable of tracking usage over an entire annum. Like these. I do not know where you get the idea they are expensive. So some would be simple timer based and others would be remotely accissible for control.

And you could always get a simple SSR that can handle the amperage you want, and use a weaker timer to switch it.

So a cheaper, yet internet accessible (or whatever) device can easily be put on a board and set to switch higher capacity devices that then switch power into your higher usage device.

A joke about a mechanical engineer, a chemist and a mathematician ends with the punchline of the mathematician saying, "there exists a solution!"

Rick C.

My main objection to that poster is that he uses 'gnuarm' as ID. Both GNU and ARM are copyrighted names.

For example I cannot or should not call myself 'microsoftintel' Maybe he is undercover to give GNU and ARM a bad name.

The other thing is, that if you need internet just for his thing to work, and if that would require anything like my cable router that gets hot enough to keep the coffee warm to be on 24/7, you likely have to pay more for 'trickety than without that gadget he wants to use.

He has not yet produced a dollar value saved. Add the cost of food you have to throw away :-)

Going to be an interesting show...

If it ever materializes.

And yet gnuarm is not copyrighted! The name comes from when I had a site t hat hosted a distribution of GNU ARM tools, gnuarm.com. Eventually the sit e fell out of date and I let the name lapse.

Or maybe you just like to find things to complain about???

ugh

rickety

The routed uses about as much power as a raspberry pi, I don't have or need the mega-blast ultra fast protocol requiring liquid cooling. My units use either 6 or 10 watts depending on which one I use or around $0.50 a month.

Also, the router runs 24/7 regardless. Who turns off their router???

Finally, the router is not required to use the device, only to set it up or monitor it. It retains it's settings internally. That much I verified be fore I bought it. I still need to verify two things. It ideally will save the settings in non-volatile storage and if not, default to always on afte r a power fail.

Huh? I came here asking for user experience comments. I get a bunch of st atic about how this will never work. Then you turn it into a pissing conte st where I have to prove it will be worthwhile?

The reported wattage of fridges seem to vary all over the map from 120 watt s to 725 watts. Mine is older, so I'll go with 400 watts without the defro st heater. That would be a max of 1.6 kWh each day in the summer peak peri od or 2.4 kWh per day in the rest of the months. Sooooo..... 1.6 * 120 * ($0.34476-$0.03827) + 2.4 * 240 * ($0.17273 - $0.03827)= (768kWh total) $

Yeah, I'd say it is worth exploring. This is without considering the defro st heater! This is also making it more clear that I really should consider getting a new fridge.

You're just here for the drama, aren't you?

Rick C.

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 10:04:56 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com w rote:

or monitor it. It retains it's settings internally. That much I verified before I bought it. I still need to verify two things. It ideally will sa ve the settings in non-volatile storage and if not, default to always on af ter a power fail.

I found a user manual for the Anakuoo NEO PRO which says, "No need to setup the NEO PRO switch again when you turn it off or unplug it from one socket and plug it into another socket." So it saves the settings into non-volat ile memory. It also likely has a built in clock so once set it will rememb er the time. This particular unit is sounding pretty good.

Some reviews say these units may or may not work initially. That doesn't s ound so good. I'm happy risking the $16 though.

Rick C.