Recognizing USB

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Good morning,

usually my Pi 400 recognizes any USB-Stick, regardless of its size oder
fileformat. This is when I use Raspberry Pi OS.

DOSBIAN is a distribution that boots directly to DOSBOX and looks like a
1989 PC what I like.

But this distribution seems not able to recognize my USB-Sticks. I can
not see anything under /media/usb although the stick contains at least
20 files. All I see is /dev/disks/by-label/@MSDOS (The name of the stick
is MSDOS).

Does anybody know how I can enable any distribution to recognize
USB-Sticks after sticking it in the 400?

FW

Re: Recognizing USB
On 30/03/2021 06:06, F. W. wrote:
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DOS predates USB (2000) so why would you expect it to support USB?  Mind  
you, it does seem a reasonable request!

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Re: Recognizing USB
Am 30.03.2021 um 09:39 schrieb David Taylor:

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It's DOSBOX not MS-DOS.

FW

Re: Recognizing USB
F. W. wrote:

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in MS-DOS there are few generations of drivers. who is writing the drivers
for DOSBOX?


Re: Recognizing USB
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DOSBOX is an emulator that runs on top of (in this instance) Linux.  
Therefore it's the Linux USB stack that's in play here - the emulated DOS
system doesn't know anything about USB.

Most emulators like this can patch through host devices - either as a
directory of files (allowing DOS to read, for example, ext4 filesystems that
it can't natively) or as a raw block device (for example, for images of DOS
floppies).

Something is going wrong in the way that DOSBOX is detecting the host's
filesystems, which might be originally derived from USB, but USB is not
something DOS has anything to do with.

Theo

Re: Recognizing USB
On 08/04/2021 06:55, F. W. wrote:
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OK, but "DOSBOX and looks like a 1989 PC" would mean there's no native  
USB support.

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David
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Re: Recognizing USB
On 08/04/2021 06:55, F. W. wrote:
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The same comment does apply - if you are emulating a legacy system, why  
would you emulate modern hardware?


--  
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"Saki"

Re: Recognizing USB
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
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As I understand it, nobody wants to emulate modern hardware but rather
emulate obsolete and unobtainable hardware on whatever the system offers
now. For many things USB has become the only way to access them
nowadays. Floppy drives, printers and modems come to mind, but there's
more.


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Re: Recognizing USB
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 12:14:18 +0200, Axel Berger wrote:

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The good news is that you can still buy 3.5" floppy drives in nice  
slimline plastic cases - from Amazon, so not hard to find. The bad news  
is that they connect via USB, not a 34 wire ribbon.

Older disk formats, take a look at the GoTek floppy emulator. These are  
popular with the vintage computer crowd because they connect via a 34  
wire ribbon cable and all the old floppy interface chips will talk to  
them. They access floppy disk images stored on SD cards and can be  
configured to read and write almost any disk image you can imagine (8",  
5.25", 3.5", single or double sided - for CP/M, MSDOS, Flex, OS-9,...).

About twice the price of a USB-connected 3.5" floppy  


--  
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org


Re: Recognizing USB
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Why is it bad news that a modern 3.5" diskette drive connects by USB -  
unless you are planning to boot from it (*), all that matters is that the  
drive appears as a drive letter (eg A:) to Windows and hence a diskette in  
the drive can be read / written to. Likewise for other legacy drives such as  
5.25" or 8" floppy, or Zip drive. I've seen three different connections for  
Zip drives over the years: parallel, IDE and USB. (**)

Having a floppy drive that connects by USB means that it can be connected to  
a modern PC, since most/all recent PCs don't have a 34-wire floppy interface  
on the motherboard.


(*) And if a PC's BIOS allows it to boot from a USB CD/DVD drive, then  
presumably it will boot from USB diskette drive.

(**) It wasn't until I got a parallel-connect Zip drive that I discovered  
that a PC's parallel port was even capable of reading as well as writing:  
I'd thought the only inputs to the PC were for flow-control. I later got an  
analogue-digitising box. This was used for editing camcorder footage to a  
VHS recorder: it grabbed a low-res preview video by parallel that was used  
for deciding on edit points, after which the required portions of the  
full-res video were copied by composite video from camcorder to VHS. It  
worked well as long as the segments to be copied were sufficiently close  
together that the camcorder could wind between one and the next within the  
time that a VHS recorder would stay in pause mode before it aborted to  
prevent tape wear. And of course you got VHS-editing coloured stripes at  
edit points. Definitely 1990s technology!  


Re: Recognizing USB
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USB floppy drives can't read some disc formats.  Floppy is a physical layer
protocol - the controller drives the motors, sensors and raw data stream
directly.  USB floppy drives are block devices that are set up to read PC
floppies and PC floppies alone, hardcoding those decisions in the drive
firmware.

Some vintage computers did things differently to DOS and their floppies
can't be read.  Some formats (like Atari ST) are close enough to DOS that
they work, but others don't.

The GoTek style interfaces expose all the raw signalling to the PC and have
a PC driver implement formats like BBC Micro or Mac GCR or whatever in
software.  But then they typically don't interface with emulators (etc) that
want to control the floppy themselves (beyond using the GoTek to make a disc
image and plugging that into the emulator).

Theo

Re: Recognizing USB
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Ah, right. I didn't know that. I'd assumed that any USB device had the same  
capabilities as a legacy device with some other interface.

I remember having to use special software to make a DOS PC read a 5 1/4"  
floppy that had been created by a CP/M 3 computer that I had. I think it was  
called 22NICE. I imagine that was to send the relevant control signals to  
the motor and head so it could access non-DOS-standard track and sector  
count and spacing. I *think* the CP/M disk was 180 KB rather than 360 KB.

Somewhere I still have a 34-pin 3.5" (DD) drive. But I haven't got a PC that  
I could connect it to...  I suppose it's possible that an old Windows XP  
that I keep for its analogue video capture card may have a floppy interface,  
though I probably haven't got the correct ribbon cable. Have I even still  
got a PC that can read IDE (as opposed to SATA) hard drives, I wonder? (*)

Fortunately AFAIK I copied anything I needed off diskette and ZIP disk to  
HDD or CD when I knew my next PC would not have those drives. I wonder if  
old copies of Harvard Graphics and Word Perfect (I think the DOS version)  
would work on Windows 7 or 10, or even whether the diskettes would still be  
readable.

How quickly old technology becomes obsolete...

My latest laptop does not have:

- parallel or RS-232 ports - no sad loss as I don't have my old dot-matrix  
printer that used parallel

- separate sockets for mike and line-out (just a 4-pole composite socket);  
no line-in capability (**)

- CD/DVD drive

- VGA socket (only HDMI) - no sad loss unless I want to connect an old 14"  
flat-screen 1024x768 monitor (do I really need to keep that?)



(*) I know I still have my IDE/SATA to USB interface device for accessing  
HDDs outside the PC that they came from.

(**) After a scare with the on-board sound card in a much older laptop, I  
bought a USB to mike/line-in/line-out adaptor. That was after I took my  
(battery-powered!) laptop into the bathroom to listen to music while I had a  
bath, and the steam did something to it. It worked again after it dried out,  
but by then I'd bought the external device.  


Re: Recognizing USB
On 09 Apr 2021 12:36:37 +0100 (BST), Theo


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    Don't even attempt to read an old Amiga floppy unless you have a drive
that can stream an entire raw track.

    That's how the Amiga packed 880kB on a "720kB" floppy. It removed most
of the inter-sector timing markers, would read for just over one revolution
of the disk, and then decode the track in RAM to find sectors, which were
then collected/reordered to the front of the buffer. On a write, it would
just start writing the bit-stream for a full track. It did NOT use a
Start-of-Track marker, and would write at whatever position the disk
happened to be at.

    Made it easy, however, for an Amiga to read other floppy formats --
CrossDOS handled common IBM floppies. It was a bit more difficult to manage
some of the Apple floppies as they were constant bit-width on track (more
sectors on the outside rim than near the hub, where common floppies with
fixed sector counts had narrow bits near the hub, and spread out bits near
the rim).


--  
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Re: Recognizing USB
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:18:09 +0100

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    For a while I used PLIP (like SLIP but using the parallel port) for
a point to point network link for boxes without ethernet - it ran the
parallel port with four bits each way.

--  
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
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Re: Recognizing USB
following:


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    Mine were SCSI (as that is what the Commodore Amiga exposed). So was
the external 2X NEC CD-reader.



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    Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
     snipped-for-privacy@ix.netcom.com    http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/

Re: Recognizing USB
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...and even then, most newer computers will boot from a USB floppy drive,
last time I checked.  (At least in legacy-BIOS mode...EFI might be
different.)

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You forgot SCSI.  (Not sure if I still have the SCSI internal Zip drive that
filled an entire 5.25" drive bay...pretty sure I kept it for possible use
with my Apple IIs after it was no longer worth having installed in newer
machines.)

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Re: Recognizing USB
Den 2021-03-30 kl. 09:39, skrev David Taylor:

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I expect it in Linux. Created in 1991. It also predates it.
And the BSDs from the 1980ies

--  


Re: Recognizing USB

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Yes, it would be good to have.  I hope the OP finds a solution.

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Cheers,
David
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Re: Recognizing USB
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Do you expect USB support in kernel 0.99.x?
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Re: Recognizing USB
Den 2021-04-08 kl. 17:04, skrev Oscar:

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Of course not.
But just because the OS is older than USB does not mean - by itself -  
that there is no support on later versions.

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