Why don't camera reviews cover the data connection to the PC?

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:59:23 -0800, Pat Cheney wrote in :

Motorola cables are standard. If the Crackberry cables don't work with Motorola phones, then they aren't standard.

Yes.

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Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

Well, now I feed bad. At first, until John Navas corrected me, I thought the problem was Motorola's fault.

In all my tests, the Motorola cables, power supplies, and auto adapters worked with the Blackberry but the Blackberry cables, power supplies, and auto adapters did not work with the Motorola phone.

Errantly, after much discussion with myself, (I'm an INFJ) I laid blame squarely on the Motorola engineers. Since it was their fault, I returned perfectly new equipment to them, in the form of brand new Blackberry equipment.

That way, I had a set of cables, power supplies, and auto adapters that worked with all my electronic devices, whether they be card readers, ear phones, cell phones, cameras, or GPS navigation units.

Now I feel bad that I gave actually bad cables to Motorola instead of the other way around. All the equipment was new so I didn't benefit from it, so I don't consider it stealing. I consider it making my point known.

It turns out, from you and John Navas, that I misdirected my ire, something we INFJs tend to do. I no longer recommend everyone send Blackberry equipment back to Motorla as a form of silent protest!

Thank you for setting me straight!

Indeed. I learned a LOT from this nntp thread!

1. I learned to decode the manufacturer specifications for camera ports (e.g., a USB/AV port isn't a mini-usb port)
2. I learned why my Motorola cables work with Blackberry but not vice versa (e.g., the Motorla cable follows the standard; Blackberry does not)
3. I learned WHY Casio put a proprietary USB port on the EXILIM camera (e.g., it's cheaper and takes less space than separate AV & USB does)
4. I learned NOT to remove the flash card from the camera indiscriminately (e.g., that's probably how I "corrupted" the flash card)
5. I learned that dpreview & steve's digicam don't list connector format (e.g., they don't say anything you can't get on Casio's own web site)
6. I even learned why there is a USB-A and USB-B on my hard disk (e.g., John Navas says it's so we don't mix up analog & digital signals)
7. I learned I was blaming the wrong manufacturer for the Blackberry fiasco (e.g., I sent Blackberry equipment to Motorola; I should have switched)
8. I learned not everyone wants a single cable to work with all electronics (this, for the life of me, is unfathomable, but it is apprently true)
9. I'm even learning how to fix a corrupted Sandisk flash card (e.g., mine is RAW and won't format in Windows no matter what I do)
10. I learned that there are some really nice helpful people on the usenet (thanks to John Navas, SMS, Marco Tedaldi, Tony Cooper, Jurgen Exner, etc.)

how is it that you consider calling a camera 'p&s' to be pejorative and offensive, yet you refer to a blackberry as a 'crackberry', a term which is arguably even more so ?

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:07:06 -0800, Pat Cheney wrote in :

These are cable connectors, and they are different so average consumers don't inadvertently create a non-working loop.

Many of us either don't care or don't use cables or both.

Thank you. Pretty good summary.

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Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:26:31 -0500, nospam wrote in :

That, sir, was only in fun. I have great respect for the Blackberry. I have a few friends addicted to them who use that term themselves, and I've picked it from them. I didn't realize it was a sensitive issue for you. My apologies.

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Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:31:37 -0800, John Navas put finger to keyboard and composed:

I prefer this more informative article:

"OTG" is an extension to the USB standard that enables a device to function either as a host or as a peripheral.

"A key usage case is a mobile phone that can be a Default Host to a Mass Storage memory stick or a Default Peripheral to a PC."

"The OTG cable has a micro-A plug on one side, and a micro-B plug on the other (it cannot have two plugs of the same type). OTG adds a fifth pin to the standard USB connector, called the ID-pin; the micro-A plug has the ID pin grounded, while the ID in the micro-B plug is floating. The device that has a micro-A plugged in becomes an OTG A-device, and the one that has micro-B plugged becomes a B-device (see above). The type of the plug inserted is detected by the state of the pin ID."

"USB OTG defines two roles of devices: OTG A-device and OTG B-device. This terminology defines which side supplies power to the link, and which is initially the host. The OTG A-device is a power supplier, and an OTG B-device is a power consumer. The default link configuration is that A-device act as USB Host and B-device is a USB Device. The host and device modes may be exchanged later by using HNP (Host Negotiation Protocol)."

So in order to connect a phone to a PC host, the phone must power up as a power consumer, and as a peripheral. This in turn means that the ID pin must be floating. Similary, if the phone is connected to a charger, then the ID pin must be floating also. If it were grounded, then the phone would be trying to put power on the cable.

It seems to me that it would be a very straightforward matter to determine the actual connectivity of a Blackberry or Motorola mini-USB cables. Just break out a $10 DMM, clamp the ends of the cable in a vice, extend the DMM probes with sewing needles taped to the ends, and then measure the resistances between the pins. That should put any unsubstantiated assertions quickly to bed.

The pinouts.ru URL which I alluded to earlier clearly demonstrates that Motorola uses some kind of proprietary passive signalling method at the charger end of the cable. It does not suggest, and nor did I suggest, that the actual cable is any different than a standard cable. I'm assuming that the original charging cable has 5 pins at both ends. If it has 4, then that creates a problem, unless the required resistor is embedded in the cable, which would then make the cable non-standard.

Did I say I was confused?

- Franc Zabkar

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Please remove one \'i\' from my address when replying by email.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:22:08 +1100, Franc Zabkar wrote in :

Charging only requires either (a) a *standard* (not proprietary)

5-connection Mini-USB cable or (b) a Motorola USB driver. The Motorola charger simply conforms to the standard.

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Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

Wrong, it's the opposite. Motorola doesn't follow the standard.

They say less actually.

If he really said that, he's wrong, but I don't think he said that.

I think that most people would prefer it, but they aren't too upset when it isn't the case. I know that in China the government has mandated that USB connectors be used for charge connectors for low-current devices, but AFAIK there is no standard they've mandated for AV connectors. Maybe we should encourage the Chinese government to mandate standards for this kind of stuff since we are unable to do it.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:50:21 -0800, SMS wrote in :

Whatever you do, ignore posts by "SMS" -- he pontificates about things he knows nothing about, and tries to put down people that expose him for what he is.

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Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:29:27 -0800, John Navas put finger to keyboard and composed:

Does the USB standard specify how a charger is to behave? What does it have to say about the fact that Motorola chargers short the Data+ and Data- pins (according to pinouts.ru)?

Does the required "standard" cable, when connected to a charger, need to have 5 pins at both ends?

- Franc Zabkar

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Please remove one \'i\' from my address when replying by email.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:03:03 +1100, Franc Zabkar wrote in :

Whatever you say, Franc. [sigh]

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Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:04:33 -0800, John Navas put finger to keyboard and composed:

What is that supposed to mean? Is it so hard for you to quantify what

*you* mean by "standard cable"? I have never seen a Blackberry or Motorola mini-USB cable. Have you? What's on either end? Four pins or five pins? Is the ID pin grounded or floating? At which end?

- Franc Zabkar

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Please remove one \'i\' from my address when replying by email.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:03:00 -0800, John Navas put finger to keyboard and composed:

Pontification?

Pot, kettle, black.

- Franc Zabkar

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Please remove one \'i\' from my address when replying by email.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:14:36 +1100, Franc Zabkar wrote in :

I see you haven't changed, Franc. Pity.

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Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

The connector is standard, but the Motorola phone recognizes a Motorola charger by circuitry in the charger that uses the fifth pin as a sense pin. Hence a 5 pin mini-USB cable connected to the phone, with only +5V and GND won't charge the phone because the phone will know that it isn't connected to a Motorola charger (or an after-market charger with the same circuitry). The phone will display "Unauthorized Charger."

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:00:52 -0800, SMS put finger to keyboard and composed:

Ah, so the Motorola mini-USB cable has 5 pins at both ends?

- Franc Zabkar

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Please remove one \'i\' from my address when replying by email.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:50:18 -0800, John Navas put finger to keyboard and composed:

No, John, it is you who is still your old arrogant self. I have openly confessed my ignorance. All I'm asking is that you provide more detail, if you have any. None of the questions I've asked are difficult, and I haven't asked them to score points. Neither am I prepared to stroke your ego.

In the past we've had discussions in sci.electronics repair in regard to how USB chargers work, but IIRC we weren't able to resolve anything. I'm still ready and willing to learn, but I won't accept your unsubstantiated assertions. I need independently verifiable

*facts*. So how many pins does a Blackberry or Motorola mini-USB cable have at either end? Is the ID pin grounded or floating? At which end?

- Franc Zabkar

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Please remove one \'i\' from my address when replying by email.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:05:30 +1100, Franc Zabkar wrote in :

You guys are made for each other. Best wishes. :)

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Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John