This inspired by the mini-thread in the thread up yonder about HP DeskJet printers. Actually something of a reverse gloat, along the lines of "my old printer still works; does yours?".
Got my HP LaserJet 2100M (600 DPI w/PostScript capability) ca. 2000. Not only is the printer still working perfectly, but I'm still using the same cartridge I got with it!
Which is a little puzzling; while the printer hasn't exactly been used in a production environment, I have put plenty of pages through it: printed out many entire manuals, etc. I'm just waiting for the cartridge to empty out, but it still hasn't come close. (I even have a 2nd cartridge I got with the printer, still in its foil package.)
One thing I really don't like about this, and really most HP printers that I've used, is that it hates to print on the back of printed sheets. Usually it eats/shreds about half the sheets one tries to print this way. Yeah, I know, you can get HPs with "duplex" options, but to me, that's utter bullshit. I remember the old Panasonic laser printer my old office had. It was a huge beast, and certainly no better than the HP we also had at the time (LJ 4???), but the Panasonic would feed *any* paper you put into it, even if it had just been run through the printer on one side. I'd always use it to print out my manuals on 2 sides for proofing.
Other than this, the LaserJet is a fine piece of equipment.
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Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
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Check that there's still some tread on the rollers, and maybe the separation pad.
All the duplexers do is flip the paper over so it can refeed. Printing on the blank side of once-printed paper shouldn't be a problem.
Several brands of big office copier/printers used to provide me with lots of hundred-page PostScript misprints. That once-printed paper worked fine in LaserJet 4050 and 4350 printers.
**I was just saying to my partner last week, that what I hated most about my HP Laserjet 5MP (ca. 1994) was that the damned thing refuses to stop working. I've fed it with more than a dozen cartridges (around 60,000 pages) and it simply works and works perfectly. Print resolution is flawless, paper jams almst unheard of (one every thousand pages or so). I've even been using re-filled cartridges (despite HP's dire warnings), which cost around AUS$60.00 apiece and it just won't stop. As of 2009, it can only be regarded as a slug (6 pages/min), but it does the job. Damn it! I really wanted an excuse to buy one of those all bells & whistles, HP colour laser printers.
FWIW: In the time I've owned the HP, I've thrown out four ink jet printers, of various brands. They are, on the whole, utter crap. My HP will probably still be working well into the next millenium.
Most toner cartridges are designed for thousands of pages. (e.g., 5,000 pages -- 10 reams of paper)
I've had the same problem -- though I consider it an *annoyance*! I routinely rescue color printers (not the cheap inkjets), run them until they run out of ink/toner and then scrap/recycle them.
Unfortunately, even printing 8.5x11 photos (i.e., 100% ink coverage) I haven't been able to "empty" any of them! I've been concentrating on a Phaser 8200 for the past year and it looks like there are still many months more of service left in the "ink tray" :<
You've either got bad rollers, a bad fuser or "off brand" toner. I haven't had problems with any LJ (I currently have an LJ4M+ and an LJ6P) printing "back side" (the LJ4M+ has the optional duplexer so it *wants* to print "verso")
I couldn't *kill* my LJii! I finally had to get rid of it as the electric costs were ridiculous (though the toner carts were awful cheap!)
Think carefully before buying color. Decide what you really need from the printer (I recall going through this exercise at a company where we were *designing* a printer). I use different printers for different jobs.
E.g., LJ6P for low volume B&W printing -- when I want to print a web page or "copy" a document (using a scanner); LJ4M+ for big B&W jobs (I think it is 12PPM and duplexes so it saves me paper); a Sony DPP-EX50 for postcard photographs; Phaser 560 for high volume color "documents"; other "solid inkj" phasers for large color photos; R1800 for big photos and/or CD labels; etc.
If all you need is "multicolor business documents" (i.e., where ICM isn't important) you can more effectively trade money for speed, reduced supply costs, etc. OTOH, if you want to print photos, you will find the cost of printing "business documents" to be much higher than you would like.
HP inkjets are total crap. Some of the high end Epson's are respectible -- *if* you maintain them well (I have an R1800, SC3000 and SP2000P which have all performed well -- though Photoshop doesn't like the oversized pages on the SC3000)
Nope. Not the problem. It's inherent in the lousy HP feeder design. I've never seen a LaserJet that would print on the back side of just-printed sheets even when brand new.
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Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet
A better question would be "What's the useful lifetime of your printer" or perhaps "How many pages did you print before it ended up at the recyclers"?
I used to have one of those at home. The HP2100 series will do
1200dpi, which looks really nice for photos. However, the stupid driver install defaults to 600dpi. Most people fail to notice until I change the settings.
My 2100n worked ok but had a few issues. The fuser and fan are thermostatically controlled and would cycle all night, which tended to keep me awake. I don't mind listening to noise when it's printing, but don't need the noise when it's idle. The power saving standby function apparently didn't include the fan. 10 pages per minute was a bit slow for me.
My current 2200dtn solved these problems. It uses the same cartridge, prints on both sides, does not make noise when in standby, has 2 trays, and never seems to jam if I use decent paper (except when printing my tax returns).
Incidentally, on the paper issue, I've found that thin 16 lb paper tends to jam far more often than the 22 and 24 lb stock I'm currently using. I've fixed many a paper jam problem by simply switching paper. My neighbor is into recycling everything which includes saving old printed pages and printing on the back side. The result is toner all over rubber parts of the fuser roller assembly, where the previously printed toner transfers to the roller when heated.
The 96A cartridge is rated for 5000 pages in econo mode (600dpi). My guess s about 4000 at 1200dpi. That's about 2-3 times what you might get from some of HP's low end printers, such as the HP1012 with a 12A cartridge (rated at 2000 pages).
However, my favorite office production printer (of the week), the HP LaserJet 4300, uses a 39A cartridge, which is rated for 16,000 pages. Some vendors claim up to 30,000 pages, but I don't believe it. Last year, my tax prep customers averaged about 18,000 pages per cartridge. The problem is that the stock HP carts cost about $120. There are refills available for as little at $30, but the chip on these carts do not show toner status. They also require a minor button pushing ordeal to get rid of the "non-HP cart inserted" message.
True. The printers expect the pages to be flat. Pages that have gone through the printer tend to be slightly warped. That causes paper jams. Remelting the toner on the back side of the page sometimes causes the toner to stick to the rubber roller in the fuser, causing exit jams. Paper doesn't like to slide smoothly off the stack in the tray when there's printing on the back side. That's an especially bad problem if you print a stack of paper, and then feed the stack back through the printer again to print on the back side. The pages will stick together. The rubber "feet" above the feed tray don't like to push against printed paper, where the black areas are much slicker than the unprinted white paper. It's usually not a problem with a fairly new printer, but after the rubber feet get worn and slick, things tend to slide.
Ummmm... well, ok. The duplexer will slow down the printer, even when printing one page on one side. The duplexers I have on various 2100,
4200, 4300, and older HP printers work just fine. I can't say the same for flipping over the stack and feeding the pages through again.
I suppose that's an advantage if you run a mix of paper. The printers I run into all run 20, 22, or 24 lb white paper in the main tray, and some heavier stock (for cover sheets) in the 2nd tray. Sometimes, some colored paper in the 3rd tray and possibly an envelope feeder or pile of envelopes in the "multipurpose" tray.
Incidentally, many of my customers are buying office copiers that can also act as a printer. This is becoming quite common. Printing speed is greatly improved and it eliminates a redundant printer. However, just try juggling paper around reprinting the back side in one of these high end office copiers. They get some of their speed and reliability by being optimized for a limited range of paper weights and types, and will screw up badly if fed used, damaged, or wrong paper.
Yep. Plug:
One reason I like HP is that I can get information, parts, refurbs, software, hacks, 3rd party parts, etc.
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Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Not really. The DesignJet plotters are quite nice. Also, every vendor has its winners and losers. Current HP inkjet printers seem to be aimed at the very bottom of the market. They're little better than throw aways. However, some of the more expensive HP inkjet printers are tolerable.
Yep. However, I don't like Epson because of the difficulty in obtaining parts, and their refill protection scheme. In addition, having access to parts is often not enough as proprietary software is required to align and calibrate the printer. There is a hack:
to get around this, but Epson also juggles the firmware to compensate. Epson may make better high end inkjet printers, but if I can't maintain them, they'll probably end up at the recyclers.
I dunno about the "oversized pages" problem. I use various HP plotters for large format print jobs but don't use Photoshop.
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Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Exactly. (And to the person in this thread who responded to this with "bullshit", I say "bullshit!" right back atcha.)
In case I wasn't clear, the problem I was referring to was printing a document on both front and back, where you first print the odd pages, then run the stack back through on the other side and print the even pages.
Every non-duplexing HP LaserJet I've ever seen will f*ck up and jam if you try to do this. The problem, as you said, is the curl imparted to the paper by the fuser. I have had some success taking the first-printed stack and "working" it vigorously to remove the curl, but it's a pain in the ass, and not guaranteed to work.
Since there are other laser printers that don't have this problem, I can only conclude that HP LaserJets have inferior feed mechanisms.
And I do know what the hell I'm talking about: in a previous life I was a printer (as in a real printing press, not desktop computer printers), so I've dealt with lots of machines that eat paper.
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Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet
I've done all those things; none of them make the slightest difference. (As a former printer, it's an automatic reflex for me to fan paper before inserting it into a paper-eating machine.)
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Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet
Hmm. The LJ2100 feeder is kind of poor, like a lot of the earlier and lower-end LaserJets. The 4050 and up have the best I've seen. I've got some LJ2100s and will give this a try.
It'll work better if you ensure that you print on the correct side of the sheet first. Check your paper packet for an arrow, & a label saying "Print this side first", & load your paper tray accordingly. It'll also help to riffle the stack of paper before loading it into the cartridge. Give the paper cartridge a shake to even up the edges before putting it in the printer.
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. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
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That's good advice too, although it's unlikely to be a problem on a printer that's still on its first(!) toner cartridge.
Yep. I've never had any trouble printing on used paper with any HP/Canon/Apple laser.
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W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\\|/ \\|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
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Oh bullshit. I have nearly 30 years of experience with HP/Canon/Apple/Brother lasers, & they handle double-sided printing better than just about anything else on the market. You're obviously doing it wrong. See my other post in this thread for tips.
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W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\\|/ \\|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. You also have to let the stack cool down a bit. I also listed some other problems that can cause paper jams when trying to print double sided without a duplexer.... (cut-n-paste):
The printers expect the pages to be flat. Pages that have gone through the printer tend to be slightly warped. That causes paper jams. Remelting the toner on the back side of the page sometimes causes the toner to stick to the rubber roller in the fuser, causing exit jams. Paper doesn't like to slide smoothly off the stack in the tray when there's printing on the back side. That's an especially bad problem if you print a stack of paper, and then feed the stack back through the printer again to print on the back side. The pages will stick together. The rubber "feet" above the feed tray don't like to push against printed paper, where the black areas are much slicker than the unprinted white paper. It's usually not a problem with a fairly new printer, but after the rubber feet get worn and slick, things tend to slide.
Yep, but there's a bit of a complexication. HP likes to built printers that have a small footprint. That means that the paper trays, which are always at the bottom of the pile, have to feed the paper to the printer after making a 180 degree tight turn out from the tray. The Panasonic 450(???) printer you mentioned had an externally projecting paper tray, that allowed for a more straight line paper input feed. That 180 degree turn is always a problem.
However, I do agree that HP could do a better job with their feed mechanisms. The fix is rather simple. The typical Laserjet has the absolute minimum amount of rubber in contact with the paper. Large copiers have similar mechanism, but with much larger rollers on both sides of the paper to maximize grip. They also have much thicker and softer rubber feed rollers to maximize friction. If you want a really reliable paper feed, it will look like a straight line offset press.
If you look carefully at the typical HP Laserjet, there are at least 5 feeds. I'll use the HP LJ 4000 as an example. The first is a simple roller in the paper tray to get the paper started. After a 180 degree curling turn, it goes to 4 D-shaped pickup rollers, which really do the work. Under the paper is the separation roller, which supplies pressure to the imaging drum. The paper then gets fed into the fuser roller, and then to a series of exit rollers. Any one of these can screwup and cause feed problem. Most common is the separation roller, which is made of foam, getting clogged with toner. Next is the polishing of the D-shaped pickup rollers from sliding across the paper when the feed rollers slip slightly. The paper tray input roller usually feeds correctly, but the paper can jam up against dirt and filth on the tray in the area around the feed roller. Shredded paper in the fuser assembly will usually stop the paper and cause a jam. Exit rollers are usually fairly reliable, except when the fuser craps out and the rollers get covered with toner.
Full disclosure: I sometimes fix HP Laserjet printers. However, I'm not factory trained or authorized. In the 1970's, I briefly owned a commercial print shop. Mostly AB Dick and some Gestetner. I didn't do the printing, but I sure got the complaints when they didn't work. I also ran the college print shop and got some experience on hot lead Linotype presses and Compugraphic (Harris) typesetters.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Yeah; if only we could have desktop printers with feeders as reliable as the one on the Heidelberg Speedmaster I used to "own" ... now *that's* a feeder!
--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
- harvested from Usenet
I've installed networked HP lasers since the 4M with network card installed was the latest and greatest. I've seen some of those with page counts upwards of 100,000 having nothing major done besides a cleaning.
If I remember correctly the toner cartridge was good for about 10K pages.
The old Panasonic's were great printers ! As you remark it would print on anything including the back of already printed sheets. Ours was used with two and three part NCR paper. The hard part was the software to ensure that it registered and collated properly.
The bottled toner was very cheap as well which made the machine very economical compared to similar machines.
My *OLD* apple laserjet II is on it's bizillionth cartridge and still printing. We do bulk printing of both card stock for bin lables, and product instruction sheets (quality is really not the most important factor for these...) We tell it to print a 100 sheet group (limited by that tiny tray!) and set it going. Later someone grabs the sheets, reloads the tray and off it goes again.
We are (sadly, or gladly, not sure) migrating to high speed Xerox printers. Easily ten times faster than that Apple, and 500 sheet trays too.
Then the LWII retires to just bin label cards, something that is done about two times a month.
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