I've lived in my home for 21 years and just this morning found a fault. We have an outdoor electrical outlet, my wife wanted to plug a freezer into it. I knew from previous use the outlet was in poor mechanical condition, so I bought a new one to replace it. I shut off the breaker, opened up the box and removed the outlet (in several pieces) installed a new one and reapplied power. I got out my handy little three light tester and it said the ground was open. I knew I had connected the ground so figured the problem was at the other end of the wire. The outdoor outlet is opposite an indoor kitchen outlet, I tested that outlet and it also had an open ground. I open up the kitchen outlet, it had 4 incoming wires, I noted there were three ground wires twisted together (no wirenut). The fourth ground wire went to the ground connection on the outlet, and you may have guessed it, the other end went to the ground connection on the outdoor outlet. So the two outlets had the grounds connected together, but were not connected to ground. I added a pigtail to the three other ground wires, put on a wirenut then connected the pigtail to the outlet ground. After turning the power back on, both outlets now test as properly wired. I have three outdoor outlets, I suspect all were added after the house was constructed, I'm going to test the other two right now! It is almost as easy to test outlets with a multimeter, but this three light device makes it a breeze.
Yes, I had to explain to my wife what could happen.
No, but I don't know what a RCD-relay is. I just looked it up, I think here we call it a GFCI, Ground Fault Current Interrupter. In my search it looks like the fault current for GFCI is commonly less than a RCD-relay. I'm not sure about new construction, last I knew I think GFCIs were mandatory in bathrooms and kitchens.
Nicely done. I carry a few of those in my toolbox to test customers outlets before I plug any expensive computahs into them. In 30+ years of doing this, I've been shocked once and found about 3 wiring mistakes.
You MIGHT have been able to see the missing ground connection by putting a voltsguesser between the outlet neutral and ground connections. There should be zero volts. If there was anything plugged into the floating outlet at the other end of your wiring nightmare, you would see some voltage (mostly leakage) between neutral and ground. Even if nothing were connected, there would be some capacitive coupling that would produce some voltage. If you're measuring at the breaker box, some voltage is allowed:
There's also a minor problem with the 3 neon lamp tester. It won't check for an outlet that has the ground and neutral wires reversed because they both go to the same connection in the breaker box. That's not really a problem as either wire can probably carry the current, but it's nice to have it done right. I've only seen this once where someone used non-standard and apparently random color wires in an illegal "granny unit" off a sub-panel. There were junction boxes full of different color wires spliced together with tags on the wire ends. Of course, all the tags had fallen off years ago. I ran away.
Could you buy one of these and tell me if it's worth spending $300?
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Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
I have visited Mike Holt's site many times over the years, very good site. I wouldn't get enough use out of that Ideal tester to make it worthwhile, $4.98 is more in my budget. Sorry :-)
My latest failure is with a stove my wife uses in the garage. The front burn switch failed. Since she didn't use the rear burners, I just swapped a good on for the bad one. Of course I needed to do a bunch in order to get the top up high enough to see everything. I did that and could see clearly, I marked each of the 6 wires on each switch and also made a drawing. After reassembly the lowest position didn't heat and she said the high position didn't get hot enough. I don't want to take it apart again, and it is easy to justify, the stove is old, the wires have dried out, crusty insulation, falling off near the ends. She has one in the shed she bought 5 years ago to replace it, (she bought it cheap in a damaged sale). So I have decreed the old one unsafe for repair.
I remember you. You're the guy with tons and tons of freezers.
I would recommend making sure they get good line volrage. Compressors tend to be more efficient at higher volatages. Also, you might want to look unde r the hood of a few and see if they use motor run capacitors. When they get old and start to dry out it can hurt the efficincy.
Not a big deal when you got one, but when you got a dozen of them it can sc rew with your bottom line.
When it comes to residential wiring I have a saying. When in doubt rip it o ut. I know external conduit is unsightly, I know it might not be that easy, but most of the time it is worth it. Anything with a motor. When it says 1
The nice thing about the three-neon-lights tester is that it puts a small amount of load on the circuit - something like 2 mA or 60 kohms per lamp. High-impedance DMMs (many megaohms) like to see voltages that aren't really there.
I know a guy who has an RV, and he has one always plugged into the 120 V outlet by the kitchen sink. Apparently not all RV park power outlets are wired the same.
The guy who inspected this house before I bought it had one of those. I watched over his shoulder and I thought it was pretty slick. He tried just about every outlet in the house and you could see the measured voltage drop go up as he got further away from the panel on a particular circuit.
I thought it would need a huge power resistor with heatsink, vents, and maybe a fan for the "load test" function, but apparently it only applies the load for a few AC cycles, measures, unloads, and then doesn't let you do another load test for a few seconds. I don't remember that he ever had to wait for it; the time between unplugging it, walking 6 feet to the next outlet, plugging it back in, and asking for another load test was enough.
I believe Fluke makes a similar product but I've never seen one in use.
For as little as I would use it, I can't justify the $300 either. I
*do* have a Kill-a-watt and a $15 space heater from Wally World, and I use those together to test voltage drop if I want to. It's more to carry around, though.
Also, you might want to look under the hood of a few and see if they use motor run capacitors. When they get old and start to dry out it can hurt the efficincy.
I know external conduit is unsightly, I know it might not be that easy, but most of the time it is worth it.
Anything with a motor. When it says 120 volts, give it 125. You'll be glad you did.
Ya, this particular freezer is not on a circuit with any of the others. I've been running all the freezers now for, 5 years, without any issues. They have never popped a circuit breaker! I read the electric meter dedicated to the freezers on the 1st of the month (Tax purposes). I'm now over 70,000 kWhs. Everything for the freezers is in PVC conduit from the sub panel.
Starting sometime in the 1980s, bathroom and outdoor outlets in new construction were required to be protected with a GFCI. The required locations have been expanded somewhat; I think they now include kitchens and some garage outlets as well.
GFCIs are available in two shapes - either as an outlet that can be installed in a regular outlet box, or built into a circuit breaker that goes into the main circuit breaker panel in the house. The outlet type has to be installed as the first outlet on that circuit, and then it will protect all the other outlets beyond it. (It has "line"/power- source and "load"/power-users terminals that must be connected the right way around.) The circuit breaker type just replaces the normal circuit breaker, and then it provides both overload (usually 15 or 20 A) and GFCI functions.
The outlet type GFCIs cost $6 or $7 at retail, while the circuit-breaker type cost $30, so most people installing them as a retrofit choose the outlet ones. Also, circuit breakers are not very well standardized; circuit breaker panels from different manufacturers take different circuit breakers. The outlet type GFCI works anywhere.
One drawback to the outlet type GFCI in new construction is that builders, being cheap, tend to use one GFCI to protect several outlets that are required to be protected. This is legal and safe, but it leads to things like: you plug something in on the back porch, it gets a little damp, and the GFCI trips, and suddenly you don't have power in either bathroom in your house. It's not always obvious to people that resetting the GFCI in one bathroom will fix the outlets in the other bathroom and on the back porch. With the circuit breaker type GFCI, at least all of the controls are in the main electrical panel for the house, which is a more obvious place to look for faults.
There is a newer thing that has become required in the past few years, an Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter or AFCI. US style wiring doesn't do much for protecting the conductors in the line cord to a lamp or appliance; in some places it's perfectly legal to have wires inside the wall that are 12 AWG (American Wire Gauge) (about 3.3 mm^2), on a 20 amp circuit breaker (2400 W nominal available), and then plug a lamp with an 18 AWG (about 0.82 mm^2) cord into it. If the lamp cord gets a dead short across the two conductors, the breaker will probably open, but if it's only "somewhat" shorted, the breaker will happily dump current into it for a while, which may heat up the lamp cord and start a fire.
The "good" reason the AFCI exists is to prevent this latter situation. It is claimed to monitor the current drawn on the circuit, and if the current profile suggests that an arc is happening, it opens the circuit.
The "actual" reason the AFCI exists, IMHO, is to sell $40 AFCI circuit breakers instead of $10 regular ones. The electrical industry learned their lessons from the GFCI; AFCIs are not available as outlets, only as circuit breakers.
I think the current (ha!) requirement is that AFCIs have to be installed on outlet circuits that feed bedrooms. This will probably be expanded over the years as well.
The UK (and possibly other places that used to be part of the British Empire) solves the AFCI problem by using fuses in the plugs. I think Western Europe doesn't care that much; it's sort of like the US, but the higher voltage means you don't get such a big difference in size between the conductors in the wall and the conductors to an appliance. I also think (but I'm not sure) that the line cords on appliances have slightly better insulation than what is common in the US.
I've been trying to convince the local electricians to buy one so I can borrow it. No luck so far. I've watched the videos, read the data sheet, and even stooped to reading the instructions, but I still can't figure out if it would useful for the type of stuff I do. What I really need is something like the electrical equivalent of a network cable certifier. Push the "report" button, and it goes through all the tests eventually producing a printed report that I can present to the building owner. At $300, I figure I could pay for it with a few kickbacks from referrals to the local electricians. (Note: I failed ethics class in skool).
Ummm... I seem to recall that your garage is crammed full of frozen fish in freezers. I also recall some photos of what I consider to be rather atrocious Romex wiring snaked around the outside of the house and garage. Now, you want to add a stove to the load? Have you actually measured the total current drain if you turn everything on at the same time? Have you at least tried to balance the load between the two phases entering the house? Have you considered replacing the Romex with something heavier, running conduit, and installing a real sub-panel with breakers?
Here is a photo site you might want to browse: The site is full so such repairs. It might give you a few ideas of what not to do.
I use a digital camera. A color picture is worth 1000 guesses.
OK, you wired it wrong. With only 2 burners, you might as well use two toggle switches and wire each to just full-on, and off. I actually did that once using the knob hole from the old rotary switch to mount the toggle switches. (Excuse: I was a starving student at the time).
Fine. You did your best to destroy it. I suggest you proclaim it dead, go through the requisite funeral rites, and recycle it before you're tempted to repair it again.
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Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
If the DVG (digital volts guesser) says there's voltage, there's voltage. It may be across a high impedance and capacitively coupled across the wires, but it's there. Just touch the wire and see for yourself.
I usually start poking around with the DMM only after the neon lamp outlet tester finds something wrong, or I get shocks from the equipment.
Drivel: In 2007-2011, home electrical fires represented 13% of total home structure fires, 18% of associated civilian deaths, 11% of associated civilian injuries, and 20% of associated direct property damage. Locally, we just had the local micro-brewery/bar/restaurant burn to the ground, most likely from an electrical fire:
Thanks. That's good to know. I was a bit worried that it would get hot after a few tests.
I couldn't find anything:
I have several Kill-a-watt meters. They dropping "resistor" (R17) inside kinda scares me for large loads: For appliances, I use a clamp-on ammeter and a calculator.
Also, I gave up carrying a pile of test equipment in my car long ago. If the customer can't give me an accurate description of the problem, so that I know what to bring, they get to pay time and mileage for a
2nd trip. I usually need to explain that only once. The big testers live in the office.
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Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
In the US, DIN rails are common in industrial control systems, robotics, and automation. Nothing in the home, yet.
I'm also working on installing a DIN rail on top of my bicycle handlebars and attaching all the lighting, navigation, and computing accessories on the rail mount. Not sure which size or height to use yet:
The European RCD trips at 30-300 ma and protects outlets and lighting. On smaller houses, it can be a "whole house" RCD, but I'm told is usually split into sections. The RCD needs a higher trip point to accomidate capacitive coupled "leakage" scattered around the wiring which will cause an imbalance.
The US GFCI trips at 5 ma and is only intended to run a single outlet or power strip. The rest of the house remains unprotected. I have GFCI outlets on some of my portable power strips. They false trip easily when wet or humid.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
You mean that it makes a difference whether the cord is coiled or uncoiled? I just tried it indoors with my bathroom GFCI and two heavy
50ft 12/3 cords in series. I couldn't make it trip when coiled. What am I missing here?
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Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
I think you have someone else in mind. I have no romex running outside my home. We have had the stove in the garage for 15 years and it was used when we got it. I'm not adding one I'm replacing an old stove. I have a sunroom that houses 12 freezers. I have a subpanel with 4-20 amp breakers. All wiring is in 3/4" conduit running to outlets. Are you having a bad day Jeff? Oh, and it shrimp in my freezers.
Oh, I did that to.
Yes, either that or messed up the connections to the burner.
Never saw you act like this before, I hope things are better tomorrow. Good evening, Mikek
** The only reliable way to check a power outlet is to remove it from the wall and inspect the wiring visually. Only then can you be sure the E and N are the right way around and that there are no loose grub screws or signs of over heating damage.
Having E and N reversed means that any RCD on the circuit will trip soon as a load is plugged in making it unusable.
But far worse is the possibility of a lost connection in the earth conductor further back in the circuit making the earth pin *live* on some of the outlets.
It's possible, but I do recall the multiple freezers full of fish. Oh, it's shrimp. Still sounds familiar but now I'm not so sure.
Nope. It's typical. Some bad, some good. I don't think I'm being inordinately obnoxious but if I offended you in some way, please forgive me. That was not my intent. I'll try to be more diplomatic in the future.
Ok, you did that right. I was thinking you just ran a Romex extension cord. I take it the sunroom is wired seperately from the garage?
OK. I see the problem. If you want to put it back the way it was, you'll probably need the marked wires. However, it does look rather rusty and with rotted insulation. Might be a good time or excuse for a replacement.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
That would cut into revenue, though! Can't have that.
If you have a General Electric or Square D (now part of Schneider) panel, no problem, even if it's 50 years old. Every hardware store has a choice of breakers to fit those panels. Cutler-Hammer and ITE/Siemens are almost as available - sometimes you might have to go to two stores, but pretty often you can get it at the first store you go to.
If you have a Federal Pacific Electric, Zinsco, or possibly an old Bulldog Pushmatic breaker panel, you're kind of screwed, because the breakers have inherent design flaws. The only good way out is to replace the entire circuit breaker panel and all the breakers... probably a few hundred dollars if you do it yourself, more if you hire an electrician.
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I didn't think it was a big deal, myself, until I read news:alt.home.repair and some other forums where this tended to be a regular topic.
Standard disclaimers apply: I don't get money or other consideration from any companies mentioned.
I don't doubt it. My ex's brother had an electrical fire in his house that I think was started by bad connections at the receptacle for the electric range. It was bad enough that they had to stay at an extended- stay hotel for at least a few weeks while repairs were made.
I wonder why they keep the electrical code a secret, though. Last summer I was looking at adding some gas piping to my house (which I ended up not doing) and I found that the code for that is free to read on the Web. I think part of the answer is that the homeowner-type books with lots of pictures are cheap at Home Depot, etc, and they usually have one nailed to the shelf that you can look at.
I poked around on Fluke's site and I couldn't find it either. False alarm.
I like the Kill-a-watt and the Ideal tester because I don't have to do (as much) math. Just push the buttons and see what they say.
I also like the watt-hour function of the Kill-a-watt. Microwaving some potatoes for dinner costs me about 2 cents. Mowing the yard with my nuclear-powered lawnmower and string trimmer costs me about 12 cents.
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