Buyer Beware

The following is an opinion of mine, and only mine.

Often you will see an item come up for auction on Ebay with something like the following description that I've seen recently: "(4) RARE NOS 1966 VINTAGE Motorola.. 2N4264 AUDIO AMP TRANSISTORS"

Let's look closer at some of the buzzwords in the above statement. What do they imply, and what do they really mean?

RARE The seller is trying to make it sound as if there is some additional worth in the rarity of the item. He seems to be justifying his high prices. But the rarity of the item doesn't necessarily relate in any way to the worth of the item. In many cases, in fact in most cases, it can indicate that the reason for its rarity is that it's nearly worthless. People originally purchased very few of the items because it wasn't a good value for the money. Or else most of the items ended up in the landfill as trash. In the case above, the 2N4264 transistor, it has specifications that are so mediocre that it seems to be what was left over after the better transistors such as the 2N3904 and 2N4124 were picked out during the manufacture. These 2N4264s would have been rejected as 'seconds', so Motorola gave them a new number and probably sold them as rock-bottom low-end parts.

NOS and VINTAGE New Old Stock and vintage. Well, you can still get the datasheet for this transistor, and it was still being made as of 1997, the date at the bottom of the datasheet. So if you would prefer old stock over new, then by all means, buy them. But new stock is probably better, and in this case, a lot cheaper. Why? Because the cost of a part is heavily related to the volume sold, so that a very high volume part such as the 2N3904 often costs less than the 2N4124 which has lower specs but also lower volume.

So don't be fooled by "NOS" or vintage terms. They're just another opportunity for the seller to distort the truth. That item that has an inherent worth will be known by others and the bids will indicate this worth. Rather than look for these buzzwords, look for factual information such as date code, or provenance. If they came from a plant that has closed down, they may be production parts that were new when purchased. If you get parts that are still in the sealed bag or container or on tape feed, then you can be reasonably certain that they're new and have not heen picked over.

Motorola Well Motorola is now ON Semi, and you can still get the datasheet for this transistor from their website. And the specs show that it is a really mediocre transistor, literally what's left over after the common ones such as the 2N3904 and 2N4124 have been picked out or 'culled'. Perhaps the seller didn't want you to know that they are still being made by ON Semi, so you wouldn't find out how much of a ripoff he's trying to sell you.

What I've said about this particular electronic part applies to other parts as well, and indeed to anything you buy whether it's from Ebay or from the local store. Even the U.S. government is guilty of doing this. For decades the U.S. Postal Service has tried to convince people to buy commemorative stamps because they're a good investment. Recently I bought sheets of 8 cent stamps from the early '70s for little more than their face value on Ebay, so if you had invested your money in commemorative stamps, you would be getting very little return on your investment.

The motto here is Buyer Beware. Just because people say that it's supposedly rare or worth a lot doesn't mean that it is. Do your research to find out what the prospective purchase is really worth before you put your money down on an item that's advertised to be more than it really is. Make sure that the NOS and vintage really are just that, and not some leftover parts that have been picked over. Your research will later save you a lot of money and grief.

-- @@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@ ###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###

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My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 hotmail.com Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
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You'll be glad you did! Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't changed it:
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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, th
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I thought the whole point of NOS was to take the piss out of the buyers ! I really must get round to ridding myself of some junk that way.

I especially like those ppl advertising *used* toobs - lol.

Graham

Reply to
Pooh Bear

Not used. Well aged and cured like fine whiskey ;) Right!

Regards,

Boris Mohar

Got Knock? - see: Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things)

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Reply to
Boris Mohar

Bottom line, especially someplace like ebay, is that it's worth what somebody will pay for it. I wonder if anybody'd buy a "repairable" IBM Thinkpad T-30?

Cheers! Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

Yeppers!!! That "repairable" term is used extensively throughout Fair Radio's catalog and web site in the descriptions of their test equipment and military gear. Quite frankly, it scares me away from what I might otherwise have an interest in. Their test equipment prices are a bit steep for "repairable" items, especially since they provide nary a clue as to what the problem(s) might be, nor even if all the parts are there. Or are they trying to say that the equipment just has not been bench-checked and verified that the item performs at least some of its functions?

I've probably sent many hundreds of dollars to vendors other than Fair Radio because of that one word in their descriptions.

Has anyone had any experiences with buying "repairable" equipment from Fair Radio? If so, I'd sure like to hear about them... might cause me to change my opinion of "repairable".

--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net  (Just subsitute the appropriate characters in 
the address)

Never take a laxative and a sleeping pill at the same time!!
Reply to
DaveM

Repairable is Fair Radio's way of telling you that the item is complete, but either doesn't work, or hasn't been tested. It has been a while since I have ordered from them, but as I recall, repairable items were about as likely to work as not.

-Chuck

Reply to
Chuck Harris

Thanks for that... it makes sense to indicate an item as "repairable" when they know that it doesn't work, but it would make more sense to indicate an item as "unchecked" if that is the case and its condition is unknown. Oh well.. guess they are too set in their ways to change...

--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net  (Just subsitute the appropriate characters in 
the address)

Never take a laxative and a sleeping pill at the same time!!
Reply to
DaveM

Sometimes it means there is a damaged part and they include the part with the equipment. I used to drive to the store when I lived in Ohio and I found that the test equipment they sold as scrap was in better shape than what some others sold and claimed to work.

They had a retired EE working part time to determine which category to put something, or to sell it as "Checked" if you wanted to pay a little extra for it.

I've bought things there for $25 that others wanted $250 for, and it was in good condition. After all, there has to be a reason that they are still around when hundreds of other surplus places have died.

--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

It's not that I'm unappreciative of these comments in the thread that I srarted. It's just that some inconsiderate followed up with a comment that totally snipped what I had originally posted, and things went to hell in a handbasket.

So...

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, th

Doesn't buyer beware apply to everything you buy...not just EBay purchases.? "Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com...

Reply to
Kim Sleep

purchases.?

Well, I would say that the average consumer doesn't give a thought to it when they walk out of a store with their purchases, because they have purchased items from reputable companies. And they can walk back in there later and get a refund or resolution to their dissatisfaction.

So far in my several score of Ebay purchases, I have had several that were shoddy, and i've had to send many of those back to get a refund. I've had nowhere near as many problems with store purchases, or purchases from online retailers.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, th

Bad hair day, Watson? As a middle-poster, I generally try to snip all but the pertinent parts to which I'm responding. Am I the inconsiderate to whom you refer? (which, just to snipe, "inconsiderate" is an adjective - inconsiderate what?) ;-D

So here's your rant, and your rant rant, re-re-quoted in its entirety, as well as that stupid 15-line sig that only annoys people.

I've placed my Wacko sig even underneath _that_. :-) (it came up at random from the obscene 'fortunes' collections, but it's worth a scroll, I opine....)

--
Cheers!
Rich
 ------
 "It was in a bar in midtown Manhattan and the Frenchman and the American
 were talking about love over some dry Martinis. "Deed you know, sir," the
 Frenchman said, "that een my country thair are 79 different ways how to
 make the REAL, passionate luff?" "Do tell?" said the American. "Well,
 that's amazing. In this country there's only one." "Just one?" the
 Frenchman said, condescendingly. "And what eez that?" "Well, there's a
 man and a woman, and --" "Sacre bleu!!" exclaimed the Frenchman. "Numbair
 80!""
Reply to
Rich The Newsgroup Wacko

2N4264 has an order of magnitude less switching storage time than the 2N3904 and one fifth the current fall time. It doesn't suffer from gain reduction or desaturation above 100mA - being characterised to 200mA with low VCEsat. The trade-off is operating voltage, being useful only in
Reply to
legg

prices.

originally

the

better

I sent the seller an email _again_ this morning complaining that another auction was wrong. The first one had the specs _and_ the banner for the MPS65 in the auction for the 2N4264, which was deceptive. The auction I found this morning had the MPS banner replaced with

2N4264, but with the specs for the MPS still there, which is even more deceptive.
Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, th

Makes me think "repairable" is like a bill being "payable". The item likely needs repairs. There is no statement as to how easy this will be. If they took the time trouble to find out what went wrong, they probably would have taken the probebly less time to actually fix it.

If I was famaliar with the item being sold as "repairable" and know of common and easy to fix failure modes that probably necessitated repairs and that the seller probably does not know about or that the seller probably would not bother to fix, then I would buy it.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

Reply to
Don Klipstein

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