How many of your jobs are like this?

wly

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Try prolotherapy or prp?

Reply to
Bryan Buckley
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She has tried various things for years. She even had less drastic surgery a few years ago, which helped for a while. She has had injections in her knees (some rooster comb stuff), cortisone shots, supplements. Bone on bone is not a winnable situation.

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Mike McGinn		FACOCM
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Mike McGinn

American homes have much less thermal mass than yours do. Wood/drywall versus brick/plaster, and so on. Another observation corroborates this: If we go to lunch we must turn off this cooler because it requires an open door, which obviously is not a good thing when only the dogs are home. The temp jumps up a degree or two, fast and not enough time to heat some thermal mass (like the kitchen counter) all the way through. Yet the cooler cannot give you back that degree or two, it can only maintain the then higher temperature level and prevent it from rising even more. It actually will gradually rise anyhow but much slower than if the cooler was off.

So no, thermal mass does not seem to explain it. It's something else. But what?

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Joerg

So your house contains nothing but hot air?

If it contains other things like furniture that must be cooled I understand the situation, not your amazement though.

Groetjes Albert

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Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
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Albert van der Horst

Well said Don. Would that many others could see that too.

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Paul E. Bennett

Depends on your work environment. If you have a dozen clients then it's quickly not just about the process (although that's #1 in importance) but also about the tools. If you cannot generate file formats that allow them to interact using SW they already here, that's a problem.

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Joerg

No, that's not the case. (If I had to venture a *guess*, I would suspect stagnant pockets of air so only a small, *unchanging* portion of the household air volume is being "swapped out". Yet I think even that is too simplistic an answer).

I recall living in Denver -- not quite as hot nor as dry, but similar. On returning home from work (early evening), turning on the whole house fan would cool the house *quickly*. Doing so when the outdoor air temperature was low made the effect even more noticeable.

But, with the cooler, it's as if some of the warm air (*most* of it!) just doesn't want to "leave the building". So, you can move an equivalent volume of air through the house and out the opened (cracked) windows in a few minutes -- yet see *no* change in temperature.

Imagine getting into your car after it's been sitting in the Sun for a few hours. You open the windows to let the trapped heated air out -- but the car *doesn't* cool down! This is the enigma that you face with the cooler.

I admit to not being able to wrap my head around it as the whole idea of *humidifying* air to cool it runs counter to decades of upbringing (where DE-humidification was the goal).

[I have a similar puzzlement concerning how it gets *colder* outside, in the winter, *after* sunrise -- which one would assume would be the coldest time of day/night]
Reply to
Don Y

We've tried turning on ceiling and other fans because I thought the same thing, pockets of stagnant air. Some of our fans are of the "Hollywood tornado simulator" kind where you can't leave anything on the table of it'll fly off. Long story short it didn't make any difference :-(

[...]

That could be the underlying issue. But who knows.

[...]
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Joerg

Since we now use the ACbrrr almost exclusively ( :< ), it's not of *practical* importance to us. *But*, it is irritating in that it defies logic (like my comment about the outdoor temperature *falling* after sunrise in winter). It seems like there should be a "simple" explanation -- even if it relies on some complex *process*.

It also seems like a perfect place to implement *better* "controls" -- instead of the dumb bang-bang controller that most coolers use. Not only would this conserve energy (and money), but, in places where coolers tend to be used, water tends to be in short(er) supply. Running a cooler and just, effectively, pushing that water *outside* is really wasteful!

I've been slowly instrumenting the house with the hope of trying to understand some of these "unnatural" natural processes. But, I'm just shooting in the dark hoping that I can measure/observe "whatever" might be pertinent... (and *assuming* that I *won't* -- else someone should have done it already!)

Reply to
Don Y

No, you're thinking in terms of maintaining an MS-Word document :>

The paradigm is different for PDF's.

Imagine you had a *paper* document cross your desk. You've been asked to comment on it. What do you do?

You get a red pen and make comments in the margins. Or, you put "post-it notes" on the pages that you want to amend. Or, you *attach* some other material that your comments want to reference. Or, you tape a new 'scope photo *over* the existing one in the document.

The original document doesn't change. Page 23 is still page 23 (which is important because other reviewers will be referencing page 23 in their notes and you don't want

*your* page 23 to now, effectively, contain the previous contents of page *22* -- because of something you inserted back on page 18 -- nor do you want your ToC to change and end up out of sync with everyone else's...).

It really is a good example of changing the technological problem (making it simpler, in some ways) and providing a better, more intuitive/familiar user experience.

As to the politics of getting tools into a client's hands... if they can afford my time, chances are they can arrange to get whatever tools they need to facilitate that activity.

The biggest problem I have had is with the Manuals that I prepare. Here, I'm stepping on someone's toes who may not be a part of the department. I.e., "the DTP guy". He, often, has his own preferences or *mandates*. So, he sees my FM document and cringes because he's working in Quark (I don't know any serious DTP folks who use anything made by MS! The documents become too unwieldy and "buggy" very quickly).

"Sorry, what did you expect? I should purchase and become expert with the tools *you* use *just* to accommodate

*you*? And, what about the guy down the street who uses different tools? Do I have to do the same for him?? Do all of your *engineers* and marketing staff have Quark on their desktop? Ah, I didn't *think* so! Yet, somehow you are able to accept raw material from them to build up your documents, right? (Shirley you don't write *all* of this from scratch) So, if I gave you a pretty PDF (saves paper) of the document that you could refer to (to see where things are wrt each other), exported a text file for each 'flow', and gave you all the TIF, PSD, BMP, GIF, PNG, etc. files that were referenced *in* the document, you should be able to import all of them and layout this document to *your* standards rather easily, yes?"

That's discouraging. We had planned to tile the counters and floors in the hopes of keeping things cooler (thinking that we only had to keep direct sun off them)

I notice he's added a compressor to his property since moving in! I guess he must not *like* living with just the cooler! :>

Reply to
Don Y

Sometimes clients need to be shown "there are better tools" (and processes).

I did a manual for some folks many years ago (i.e., I was preparing it on a 386 -- to give you an idea of the timeframe). At the time, I was using VP -- like version 3 or 4 (AFAIK, they are up at ~10 now).

I recall a colleague asking me why I didn't use Word. "It's so *powerful* and *everyone* has it!"

I opened the ~10MB document, flipped to a random page, made a change and closed the document in less than a minute (remember, this is a 386!). I asked him to try the same with a similarly sized document in MSWord. :>

Then, proceeded to show him the complex layout format that VP would maintain *for* me -- automatically -- and asked him if he could even get Word to do the same thing *manually*.

MSWord is for typing memos and short correspondence. Anything beyond that you're hindering yourself. I rely on FM for

*everything*, now. Even "recipes".

"Why use lead when gold will do?"

Reply to
Don Y

Yeah, like all my clients :-)

Which my clients only use for final documentation or stuff that's released to the publich.

For me that was the procedure in the 90's. Very rarely it'll happen these days except now I have an office thingamagic that can also scan it in and send it back to me via LAN.

Example from a project I am working on right now: Huge spec, needs to be finalized. One design crew is 500mi south of here but the lead designer on their part is again 100mi north from there (meaning 400mi south from me). My client is around 2000mi east from here, or three time zones. The digital guy is 300mi north from them. IOW, people in five locations. The spec gets passed around with redlines that can then be accepted, declined or changed, in the end by my client who has final authority. Now if you didn't do this in MS-Word format but PDF you'd have a mid-sized chaos.

Maybe you've never worked with large companies. Sure, they can afford a now tool. But two things will work against you:

a. Their engineers have to learn the new tool which costs time and will cause the schedule to slip because each day has only 24h. Management does not like that.

b. First a purchase order must be issued. Unfortunately one of the guys who has to sign this is on a biz trip. Once the SW is there a work ticket needs to be issue for IT to install it. However, this cannot happen before the PO is through, the SW boxes arrive, and the responsible IT managers signs off. Who by then happens to be scuba diving in Belize.

DTP for engineering documents? That only happens if a company wants to use some of my stuff in an academic publication. Or occasionally if I do a courtesy translation of user stuff into German.

Same with DOC. Except it's easier because everyone can edit. With PDF this requires a rather expensive SW suite, only readers are free.

Oh, it does provide thermal mass. But not forever, after an hour of air streaking across it it'll be almost at the temperature of that air.

Depends on the people. Folks with arthritis may not like the moist cool air.

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Joerg

What is VP?

I used Word for rather large documents with graphs, plots and whatnot in there. Never had any speed problems. Initially I used MS-Works but bought Word because it have a major upside for EEs: It could import HPGL straight from my lab equipment. It has in the meantime lost that capability :-(

For me the reason is simple: Because all clients use lead :-)

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Regards, Joerg

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Joerg

I've never seen or felt that happen. Could the evaporation of some fog be doing that?

Bill sloman would probably say it's an Exxon-Mobil conspiracy :-)

The controller of ours is my hand :-)

Probably can better be researched but that will also take lots of work. What blows my mind is that body politicus is completely not interested in it. Energy consumption? Phhht, who cares ... :-(

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Joerg

Even though cooler air is being introduced, the surfaces still are at a higher temperature. If the temperature difference is great - like a car sitting in the sun - surface radiation can continue to heat up the incoming air for quite a while.

Water absorbs heat much more effectively than air. Cool moist air can absorb a lot of heat very quickly. Thousands of years ago people discovered "evaporative cooling" when they noticed that hanging wet curtains in the doorways cooled the tent more effectively than the breeze alone. This is the principle behind modern mist coolers - they create a cold fog which sucks heat from the surrounding air (and from your skin when you sit under them).

This happens because low clouds are formed at night from humidity released by surface melt the previous day. These clouds act as a blanket holding the previous day's heat and humidity nearer to the ground. At sunrise, these thin humidity clouds quickly burn off and for a short time ground radiation cooling overpowers the sunshine. Non-intuitive, but easily understood.

George

Reply to
George Neuner

Getting back to electronics, I hugely enjoy mentoring - not just passing on tips and stuff, but enthusing... same reason.

Steve

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Reply to
Steve at fivetrees

I would imagine you'd have more luck with folks who "really wanted to play guitar" than "really wanted to design op amps" :>

It's interesting to see what motivates/interests people. Even more interesting to see the sorts of people who aren't motivated by *anything* (sad).

I really *really* wanted to make gelato last night. And was *terribly* disappointed when I curdled the custard at the last *second* :< (I should learn to rely on thermometers instead of "feel").

(sigh) So, another 6 eggs, 3 cups of milk, sugar... and a few more *hours* for the repeat performance :< (must hurry while the black raspberries are nice and fresh)

Reply to
Don Y

Sorry, "Ventura Publisher" -- I could have sworn I referenced it here previously :<

Drag out a 386 and go back to Office 4.1 (?) and tell me if you can make that same claim. :> Document in question was almost

600 pages, 161 tables, 245 figures, 11 page index, 26 page ToC (not counting all the cross-references within the text).

FrameMaker can import HPGL (& HPGL2, DXF, DWG, XWD, Sun Raster, all the "mainstream" graphics, etc.). It also has a very good "equation editor".

OTOH, I liked the handling of graphic markups (callouts, etc.) in VP better. But, it's not hard to touch them up in FM. And, you could trick VP into more clever formatting options than are possible in FrameMaker. :<

One particular advantage of FM is I can show a picture of a PCB... then, make a "callout" of some small portion of the board *enlarged*, appearing in a little "window" -- without having to use a different photograph than the original "picture of a PCB" imported into the document. Little things like that save me steps -- if the board changes, I don't have to remember to update *two* images... (the "wide shot" and the "closeup")

Well, you ultimately have to pick what's right for *you* (and them). I've been tickled with the VP and then FM decision and consider FM a great tool to producing professional documentation with minimal fuss.

[newer versions have support for SGML, etc. -- I've not followed down that path]
Reply to
Don Y

I don't think that's the case. E.g., the car analogy: you can cool a car to "outdoor ambient" very quickly just by opening the windows and waiting for the hot air to be replaced by the (less hot) air :>

The cooler moves a *huge* volume of air. So, it easily displaces all the air in the house in short order. Yet, the house doesn't cool at all!

I think if you could *dry* the house air and *then* turn on the cooler, it would cool much more effectively. I.e., its as if the heat stored in the water vapor doesn't want to leave the premises -- even though the air holding it *is*!

Yes. The swamp cooler just takes it to an extreme. It's why you don't tend to feel *as* hot sitting in 110 degree (dry) weather than, e.g., *80* degree weather "Back East".

And, the fact that you (seem) to not perspire goes a long way towards your personal comfort... you don't *feel* "as hot".

OTOH, you tend to quickly become dehydrated because you don't have this cue to remind you to rehydrate -- instead, your first reminder is the headache, dizziness, etc. I would never have believed "a pint every 20 minutes" (e.g., almost half a gallon per hour?)

Sorry, no clouds here. Dewpoint is usually ~10 or below in winter. Heck, we're only at a DP of 37, presently, with a temp of ~108. Amusing: "It feels like 102" How often can you say it feels *cooler* than the outdoor temperature (in summer) in Massachusetts? :-/

I think the problem is more related to geography. Perhaps cold air being displaced out of the portions of the mountains still in shadow "falling" down the slopes and into the washes.

Dunno. I plan on cornering one of the local weather-folks to see how *they* react to the question...

Reply to
Don Y

Corel Ventura? Now that sounds indeed like a rare species ;-)

The only thing close to a 386 is a 486 laptop but its battery croaked, it's frame is broken from some hard landings, it won't work right now. But on that very machine plus my old Tandon 386 (which is gone) I actually did many large module specs. 100-pagers with dozens of graphs, schematic chunks and so on in there. I rarely used indexing though but only because my clients didn't care for it.

Ok, that MS-Word cannot do. At least not the versions I have. But I am used to doing that before import, then it's easy.

Exactly. With the emphasis on "them". In the same way that a barkeeper won't carry three kinds of IPA if most of his patrons prefer lager. Even if he can't stand lager.

Nowadays the world has become much easier in that respect. You can often just copy and drag an image or parts of it right out of an application and plop it down. But then there's no file, it'll be embedded.

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Reply to
Joerg

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