How can I charge a 12V Car Battery?

| > Your understanding of the idea of work (in the physics sense) is very | > flawed bla bla bla. | | I guess you missed the relationship between thrust and time.

No, I understand the relationship. It's just not relevant to figuring out how hard and long a person would have to work to recharge a battery.

| Hint: pretend the airplane is just a fancy rocket. In this example | it is putting out 2 lbs. of thrust, for 600 seconds, we are | disregarding the weight of the rocket.

You are grossly mangling the physics involved and using that to come up with absurd answers. This is not rocket science, an airplane is not a fancy rocket, and when we're talking about charging a battery with human power, there's no need to involve an airplane.

Hint: I have a degree in physics. I spent several years in school studying this stuff, though this is _the_ basics, Physics 101. They go over this stuff in the very first physics class in college, and probably in high school too (I don't really remember what we covered there.)

| Yes, you actually have to be moving the pedal with your entire weight for | those 6 seconds, but with a spring and proper gearing or leverage, you can | reproduce the same two pound push for 600 seconds.

So, what I really need to do is put this magic pedal under one of the corners of my bed (so it's supporting much of my weight), and then take a nap on it. Unlimited free energy! I could put one of these pedals into an electric R/C plane, wrap it in rubber bands (so there's a constant force on it) and use that to fly my electric plane across the Atlantic. Look out Maynard! Look out laws of thermodynamics -- I've got a perpetual motion machine, in R/C form!

| Reaching for the work formula will not help you see this | relationship without a bit of algebra, and that woud be contrary to | my stated goal of a quick guess ;).

I didn't make a quick guess. I did all the math and algebra involved (it's not very much, actually -- took a few minutes) and gave you exact figures (and explicitly stated all the assumptions/simplifcations I made.) Actually, I used the `units' program to do most of the heavy lifting for me --

% units 2084 units, 71 prefixes, 32 nonlinear units You have: 200 pounds-force * feet You want: joules * 271.16359

once I had that figure -- 200 pounds * 1 foot = 271 joules, the rest was just simple algebra and arithmetic. Oh, you'll also need to know that power = voltage * current (watts = volts * amps), one watt = one joule/second, that there's 3600 seconds in an hour (to convert volts and amp-hours to joules) and 746 watts in a horsepower (though somehow I originally had it in my head that it was 760 watts. Not sure where that mistake came from ....)

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may be of some assistance if you still don't understand the physics involved. Go down to the `Simpler formulae' part -- there's no need to use integrals to get a good approximation of the human work needed.

--
Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com
Computers make it easy to do alot of things, but most of the things
that make it easier to do don\'t need to be done. -- Andy Rooney
Reply to
Doug McLaren
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Thanks, I am quite familiar with the formula. The point of the SPRING was to store the energy that it could be dissapated as a two pound push for a longer period.

What are you afraid of?!?

Ok, if you don't trust my instincts then look at Newtons second law and pretend we are pushing on a large rock in space with our pedal. We have known forces( 2 and 200lbs.) , assume a large mass, the times are known(600 and 6 seconds), the terminal velocities can be computed and will be the SAME if we push for 600 seconds with 2 lbs or 6 seconds with 200 lbs. The only trick here is in finding the right sized rock to limit how far you have to move the pedal in those 6 seconds.

Reply to
Steve Banks

You need years of specialized college coursework, or actual experimentation with human-powered generators, to realize just how far off you are. Any kid who has visited a science center and pedaled one of those little generators to power a small television (maybe 75 or 100 watts) quickly understands that it takes a LOT of work to generate any significant amount of juice. Makes one appreciate cheap electricity...

Dan

Reply to
Dan_Thomas_nospam

There are tons of losses to consider, nevertheless there is a direct relationship between an airplanes battery capacity, and how hard and for how long it can push against the air. If my guess was within an order of magnitude then I'd call it a good guess.

I am not attempting to mangle physics, and I did mention that "there are losses all over the place in this analogy" and I am well aware of what they are though I choose not to ramble on and on about them.

Intelligence is no defense against stupidity ;)

for

can

Thats cute, I can imagine you doing a little dance showing off an imaginary magic pedal to the room while you typed that.

That wasn't the point, and you grossly deviated when you made the comparison of a ~1500mah 9.6 power pack to a 12V 7000ah battery. With a more correct battery pack for the thrust and duration given it comes out to just under

120 strokes, or about a minute on the treadmill, which happens to be within an order of magnitude of my 6 second guess. So thanks for lending validity to my theory, which BTW didn't take me years of specialized college coursework to realize.
Reply to
Steve Banks

1.5Ah * 9.6V = ~15Wh. To recharge in a minute (which will kill the cells) you'd need a power of 15W*60 = 900W. Say a efficiency of 80%, and you'r up to 1100W. Trained athletes can't provide that much power, unless ground up and mixed with oxidiser.
Reply to
Ian Stirling

You think too small. Park your car on it overnight! After eight hours, you could store up enough thrust-hours to accellerate your car at 1G for eight hours! That should be more than enough thrust to get it into orbit. Remember to take some O2. Oh, you might want to save up some thrust-hours to make a controlled re-entry.

On my way to the patent office, looking over my shoulder for snipers working for the oil companies....

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Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Pardon me, but do you
                                  at               know what it means to be
                               visi.com            TRULY ONE with your BOOTH!
Reply to
Grant Edwards

"Steve Banks" wrote: [snip]

Dude, you're funny.

Tim

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Today\'s message was brought to you by Mary, Jane and a big number two.
Reply to
Tim Auton

I realize that. However, you seem to think that force integrated over time is energy. It isn't force integrated over _distance_ is energy. Energy is conserved. Thrust-time is not.

Well, there's a pretty long list, but I don't think it has anythign to do with this discussion.

Only because the mass you're accellerating is the same in both cases. This results in the distance moved by the smaller force being much larger.

I give up.

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I just forgot my
                                  at               whole philosophy of life!!!
                               visi.com
Reply to
Grant Edwards

OK, we'll try this again.

1.5A * 9.6V * 3600s = 51840 joules. Somebody in decent shape on a bicylce (far more efficient than a treadmill) can put out 50-100 joules/second for an extended period of time. On the conservative side, we'll say 50W. Assuming 50% efficiency for the combination generator and whatnot: 1.5 * 9.6 * 3600 ------------------ = 2074 seconds = 35 minutes. 50 * 0.5

Assuming 100W (you'd better be in pretty good shape), and a

100% efficient generator and battery (let me know where you plan on buyign those) it's a fourth of that -- about 9 minutes.

Still not within an order of magnitude of 6 seconds.

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  My polyvinyl cowboy
                                  at               wallet was made in Hong
                               visi.com            Kong by Montgomery Clift!
Reply to
Grant Edwards

Promise? :)

--
Noah
Reply to
Noah Little

Reply to
Jim Slaughter

...

True, but the resulting energy that you can extract from the same sized rock moving at the same velocity is the same.

That is an acceptable answer, I would have also accepted "you idiot!!!" or "remind me to slap your mama!!!"

Really, it doesn't work, I'm quite aware of that. (hint: momentum != energy), I really just like messing with fizzycists like Doug "Watch out for that slow moving meteor!!" Mclaren

8^o
Reply to
Steve Banks

--
And drive around for a while.
Reply to
John Fields

I set it at two amperes charge rate, low-maintenance (gel cell or AGM). These are separate settings. In many cases, I suspect you are correct about not needing to be charged; at least, it does not overcharge it like the WallWart charger does.

Reply to
Mike Norton

Reply to
olddog

That might not be safe!

greg

Reply to
GregS

Buy smart-charger. IT decreases the charge rate as the battery becomes charged, then cycles on and off to maintain voltage over a long-term period. I keep my motorcycle and boat batteries on them all winter.

Don't charge a gel cell with a lead-acid charger, it will charge too fast. If you charge a gel cell too fast the ions can't migrate through the gel fast enough and hydrogen gas is formed. Gel cells are not vented. Pressure builds up. Hydrogen is explosive. Charging, and especially overcharging, causes lots of heat. Heat increases the pressure.

Reply to
Dave

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