Xfmr core size vs. freq

Feb 26, 2006 43 Replies

Twenty posts, without covering a few basic points for Richard. Larger, higher-VA transformers have higher core-magnetizing currents flowing. This current flows independent of any load. But since the magnetizing currents have a 90-degree phase to the voltage, the power company doesn't directly charge us for them (there are indirect charges), and they can be said to be free, and not contributing to inefficiencies. But there are issues. First, higher magnetizing currents could mean higher I^2-R resistive power losses. Second, high-VA transformers are made with larger wire, so their I^2-R loss might actually be lower. So far it's a toss-up.

Third, until taking a close look, we don't know exactly how a given transformer was designed. It's common in low-VA designs to push the magnetization closer to core saturation, under the theory that 5-watts of core-loss heating won't be missed and won't excessively heat up the transformer. All to save a few pennies in copper cost. This little reality issue tilts the answer strongly in favor of Robert's higher-VA transformers.

Fourth, low-VA transformers also use smaller wire, which means that a high-VA type would have less loss when transforming a signal from point A to point B, especially if the signal came from a low-impedance voltage source. In other words, a high VA transformer would have less sag under load. Perhaps that's what Richard cares about when he talks about low-end frequency response?

Thanks, - Win

Because of the larger area/volume ratio of a smaller transformer, it can (and will) also be oreated at higher power per volume.

The same probably goes on with manufacturing cost per watt, which is higher for tiny transformers. So it then pays to shave off even though losses rise (big rise percentually, but not much absolutely).

I dislike small transformers.

Thomas

"Winfield Hill"

** How pompous.

The OP can supply his application details anytime.

What transformer parameters matter most to him cannot be known until he does.

** Magnetising current is not independent of load in a real transformer.

Only so in hypothetical ones without copper loss.

** Only true if the transformer is fed from the AC supply.

Since the OP was interested in frequencies *lower* than the AC supply, the comment does not apply.

Magnetising current matters a great deal when transformers are used for coupling low frequency signals from electronic devices - ie a valve amp output stage.

** Complete nonsense. As the OP was interested transformer behaviour at lower than AC supply frequencies, his app is not related to using the AC supply as the input voltage.

Larger VA transformers have higher magnetising currents than similar, smaller VA ones - this may be crucial if the OP has a limited supply of current from his LF source. The appropriate transformer is then one that matches the VA of the application.

Also, toroidal core transformers have MUCH lower magnetising currents than E-core types with the same VA rating - ideal where the supply of LF current is limited.

** Complete rot.

......... Phil

Sheesh, I should have known better than getting within 100 meters of an unbelievably-arrogant Phil Allison post.

Thanks, - Win

regulation is more about leakage than copper loss. only really crap transformers have more than 5-10% leakage, so mag current is approximately constant independant of load (it wont vary by more than

5-10%).

it is quite possible to design a transformer with extremely low copper loss, that still has 5-10% leakage.

oops, missed the point again...

hands up who missed the point then. "push the magnetization closer to core saturation" = bugger all magnetising inductance. its a surface-area-to-volume thing. same reason small machines are lossy whereas large ones are not.

not necessarily true at all. Until I sold it, I had a 100kVA 3-phase transformer that drew 200mA (rms) magnetising current, and it was a lovely sinusoid, too.

This is too easy. which is probably why Phil fixes things, and we design them.

Cheers Terry

Look Win, its your own fault. Its pretty clear to all and sundry on S.E.D. that you dont know anything about electronics, and are in fact a troll :) Luckily we have the great Phil to answer all questions.

Honestly, its a wonder how anything ever gets designed, there is only so much Phil to go around. Its also clear that the rate of technical progress in the western world greatly accelerated after Phil was born (around 1950, no coincidence thats when electronics really took off)

Cheers Terry

"Terry Given" = Kiwi idiot

** Piss off - you pathetic sheep shagging, pin ball machine mechanic.

......... Phil

"Terry Given" = a fool with no idea when to shut up.

** Completely false for typical AC supply transformers.

( I guess the dumbass means leakage reactance not electrical leakage )

** With most low VA transformers Imag varies *much* more with load than that.

With a low to medium VA toroidal, off load Imag can drop dramatically when the rated load is connected - so much so that the on load VA draw is less than the off load one.

Win's claim that Imag is *independent* of load was just plain wrong.

Given is just another know nothing, ADHD suffering idiot.

** Given is a know nothing, ADHD suffering idiot.

The only point he ever sees is the one on top of he head.

** You did - f****it.

And missed taking into account the context - as always.

Terry Given is a know nothing, ADHD suffering idiot.

** Autistic, asinine pedantry - in full flight.

Given is a know nothing, bloody idiot.

** Given is a know nothing, ADHD suffering idiot.

Making a complete of himself in public comes easy as pie.

It is fun to watch.

....... Phil

Sorry Phil, I havent repaired a Pinball since 1989. I just get paid extremely well to design complex thingies, which get manufactured in large volumes.

Cheers Terry

really? best not to mention that to, say, power system engineers. R is typically 1/5 of Xleak

duh. blindingly obvious.....

that will only happen if the transformer sits well into saturation. So applying a load actually pulls it out of saturation, causing Imag to plummet. A microwave oven transformer is a good example of such a dreadful design.

It would be spectacularly daft to use such a transformer in, say, an audio amplifier.

gee, I guess I must have hallucinated my 100kVA transformer. I spent the cash I got paid for it, so it must have been a group hallucination.

Cheers Terry

So the sheep shagging bit is true?

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

"it\'s the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

I've f***ed a few sheep in my time, using knives and rifles. never my pecker.

Cheers Terry

"Terry Given" = Kiwi idiot

** Got the sack even from that.
** You are nothing but a f****ng liar.

........ Phil

"Terry Given" = a kiwi f****it with no idea when to shut up.

** Go test one some day - you asinine, kiwi halfwit.

** Exactly what most low VA transformers do - you asinine halfwit.

Win's claim that Imag is *independent* of load was just plain wrong.

Given is just another know nothing, ADHD suffering idiot.

Given is a know nothing, ADHD suffering idiot.

The only point he ever sees is in the mirror - the one on top of he head.

......... Phil

And your evidence for this libellous claim might be?

As usual, when your delusions of competence get blown to shreds, you resort to half-baked abuse. Why don't you go back to ripping off gullible hi-fi freaks - or has your incopetence become clear to them too?

Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

a écrit dans le message de news: snipped-for-privacy@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

mechanic.

Come on Bill. You aren't begining to play his game, that is turning titles into name calling. Just leave that guy where it belongs. Every body knows what to think about him.

Thanks, Fred.

absolutely. self-taught, self-employed, sacked myself to go to Uni and get an honours degree.

I must have hallucinated these:

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damn, they were mighty fine mushrooms.

Cheers Terry

= admitted aspergers sufferer

** The utterly crazy things this kiwi halfwit has been posting on several NGs for the last 2 years.
** Something I deny but " Da Slow Man " is just about to do right here.
** As usual - the delusional & asinine Sloman f****it has me confused with some other person.

Resorting to " half baked abuse" is just what he has done.

........ Phil

"Fred Bartoli"

** Bill Sloman is a demented, lying pile of s*it.

The dude hates me cos he knows I am onto him.

........ Phil

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