Twisted pair (TP) capacitance, shielded vs unshielded.

Rails? What are those? You mean common mode limits?

Umm,

umm,

umm...

You're contradicting yourself: you imply there are no common mode limits*. Then you say "needs to set some reasonable CM voltage".

(*Or imply there are no such things as signals beyond the rail.)

So, this is precisely the issue I have been addressing. :)

For signals entirely within a PCB (and probably between "high speed" connectors of adequate shielding and grounding), the noise is small, and the susceptibility is small. As long as you aren't accidentally routing pairs beneath power switching pours, it'll all stay nice and quiet.

The exact scenario is putting LVDS into cables. That's fundamentally the problem, and why ALL signaling standards are either heavily shielded (USB, HDMI, etc.) or transformer coupled (Ethernet, others?).

Hmm, suppose it's worth noting, the slower, auto/industrial standards (RS-485, CAN, etc.) have receivers with beyond-the-rail input range (usually achieved with divider resistors -- probably too slow an approach for high speed signals, so you never see it done there). They still have limited range, but not being confined to a miserable 3.3V rail certainly helps against your basic IEC 61000-4-3 and -6 tests.

They're usually drawn as N-ch pairs, or something like that, so it's kind of surprising they don't crap out at < 0.8V or whatever. Maybe they do the R2R comparator trick of having complementary diff pairs, wiring their outputs together. This should be indicated in the equivalent circuit, but... you know TI, if you get an equivalent at all, you should feel lucky.

They only guarantee offset to +/-100mV of course, but typical is much better. What'd you measure, more like 10mV?

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC 
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams
Loading thread data ...

Maybe one of the leads fell off during the measurement. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Dimitrij, Again Thanks for the long reply. I'm going to send this discussion to the grad student, much will confuse him, but...

You've reminded me to take a step back. How the heck is the 60 Hz getting into the SS probe.

There are a number of other wires going down the probe. I don't think any of them are attached to anything, but one (or more) of them could be acting as an antenna, coupling the 60 Hz into the probe where it couples in different amounts to each of the signal lines.. giving the differential signal at 60 Hz. That should be easy to check.

YES!! And the first thing I should have done was to find the "path" of the 60 Hz into the probe.

Yeah I'm afraid that adding 10 meg to ground (on each side) is just going to throw away 1/2 of my signal. (or is it 1/4?)

I believe the detector is Gallium doped Germanium, used in the FIR part of the spectrum. (Galluim is heavily doped and a shallow impurity. there are some carriers that are excited thermally (at 4K) but then more when the FIR light is on the detector.) So there is also a needed bias current. The doping is such that above ~0.5 volts the conductor suffers from avalanche breakdown.. so a small operating range.

Yeah it's great thanks again. I think my plan would be to first try and reduce the source of the interfering 60Hz. After that I might think of a cold pre-amp.. (a fet down the bottom of the probe.)

But this is not my project (I'm a helper.) The grad student's adviser has been away for the past two weeks, but he's back now and we will sit down and figure out what to do next.

George h.

Reply to
George Herold

Details?

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Power supply rails, typically ground an +3.3 volts for am LVDS receiver. The one that we've tested, the receiver acts like a comparator for common mode voltages within the rails. That's impressive and arguably unnecessary.

What's this umm... stuff?

The receivers seem to work for any cm voltage within the power rails. Maybe a bit beyond, until the ESD diodes conduct; I haven't tested that.

Within the rails is reasonable. CMOS r-r opamps, and presumably LVDS receivers, transition between nmos diffamps and pmos diffamps as the common-mode voltage changes, and the offset voltage shifts some as that transition is made. And some receivers have a deliberate offset, to define the output when the input is disconnected. So they work best when the receiver runs at the designed common-mode voltage, which the transmitter sets. But the receivers do work rail-to-rail.

OK, that deserves an umm....

Not very precisely!

Here's one, but I doubt that it's representative of all LVDS receivers.

formatting link

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

You can AC couple LVDS, and then you need to set the common-mode voltage at the receiver. PCI Express is AC coupled, and it's basically LVDS.

One nice thing about LVDS is that it's DC coupled!

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

The universe.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

I use an ommmm meter to connect to the universe.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Many pat me, hmm? I never realized the most cosmic thing in the universe is belly button lint. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Actually, I have used LVDS receivers with one input grounded.

in--------R---C-------+------+-----lvds+ | | | | L C | | | | gnd-------------------+------+-----lvds-

where "in" is a poorly defied customer-furnished 10 MHz reference waveform and the shunt LC is resonant.

Works fine from small sines to big square waves. Big swings are limited by the ESD diode conduction.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Does it read 377 ommmms?

Reply to
krw
[snip]

[snip]

We had a very similar problem, LVDS video from an embedded PC module to a TFT display. The pixel clock is 65 MHz, the RGB data is multiplexed

7:1 onto the LVDS pairs. Lots of emissions peaks at harmonics of 65 MHz, with (not surprisingly) a particularly big one at 455 MHz.

The cable was about 30 cm long, initially made as a bundle of unshielded twisted pairs, with a ground wire in between each pair.

The LVDS transmitters are buried in the Intel chipset, so no hope of modifying that part or even seeing any detailed specs. We tried various modifications - shielding the individual pairs, shielding the whole cable, buffering the LVDS pairs with TI repeater ICs fed from a clean supply rail. None of this made much difference. The real problem, I suspect, was that there was nowhere to properly terminate the shield at either end of the cable without re-spinning our board and the receiver PCB on the display. Even a 10mm pigtail on a shield termination makes the shield useless at hundreds of MHz.

In the end we brute-force-shielded the whole product, and turned on the spread-spectrum modulation of the video clock.

So yes, LVDS should have zero common-mode component in theory but in practice, at least as implemented by Intel, it clearly doesn't. It's a lot better than single-ended parallel RGB video, BTDTGTTS.

We are doing a product soon with LVDS video generated by a Cyclone IV FPGA, it will be interesting to see how that turns out.

Reply to
RBlack

OTOH, we use TI and Ma*im SERDES at >1GHz (24b x 720 and 1080P), by the boatload, and have no issues with them, even with customers that have much stricter emissions limits than the FCC.

Reply to
krw

Given the application I'm wondering why you haven't filtered out anything above a few Hz.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

The signal goes out to several hundred Hz. It depend on the scan speed of the FTIR spectrometer. That's a parameter you get to choose.. assuming enough BW everywhere the faster the better. More averages, it's all about beating down the SNR by taking more data.

The goal at the moment is to get the interference down below the intrinsic noise, measure said intrinsic noise.. And then the grad student takes a ton of data. (At least that's my goal, I was thinking I need to tip a beer with his prof, and make sure we're on the same page.)

I was over there again today... doing my work mostly, which brings me home late, wired... needing a few beers before bed. (and milk.)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

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