The color reader... again!

Hi All, Ok, need ya'lls help for a little brainstorming. I have hit a calibration snag, and to be honest, it doesn't make much sense.

I have built 100 units. Of those units, 88 have calibrated just fine. However, the other 12 units won't calibrate, and they all have a similiar problem, some worse than others, and I have been beating my head against the wall for a couple of weeks now...

In a nutshell, my calibration process is two steps, in which four sets of data are taken. First, I calibrate to a known white sample. With this, I set the gain for each of my red, green and blue channels to get a reading just below max, then store the gain setting and the actual max reading.

I then place the unit in my 'black hole box', a small cardboard box lined with black felt, and take a reading. This determines my 'zero point' for each color. I change to a 2X gain channel I have, and read each color again. I use this for my dark colors.

Finally, I place a navy blue sample in front of the unit, and store the difference between the navy blue and the 2X dark reading. I use this as a scaling factor for my dark colors.

Now, for the mechanics. I have the three LEDs mounted on the top of the board. These are side firing LEDS, and they are at a 45 degree angle to my window with the red and green LEDs on opposite sides of a triangular cut in the board about 1cm from the window, and the blue LED about 25 mm farther back. On the bottom of the board I have an Ambient Light Sensor (phototransistor based) bent 90 degrees and aimed straight at the center of the window. The idea was that the board would screen the PT from the LEDs, and that with the 45 degree angle, most of the reflection from the window would be off to the side. The only signal going to the PT would be the reflectrion from my sample on the other side of the window.

Early in my troubleshooting, I found that I had to color the PCB with its green solder mask with a black sharpie to reduce transmission through the board, and out the edge of the board. This had substantially reduced my dark values, but is one more hand step in the assembly process...

And now, on to the problem. On all the calibrated units, you get a pretty set pattern on these dark and navy values, red slightly higher than green, which is higher than blue. On the bad units, however, the red is MUCH higher than the green, usually in both the dark readings and the navy readings.

My initial thought was that I had mis-aimed the PT so that it was seeing more of the red return than the green. Changing the angle of the PT does not seem to significantly change the readings. I had thought that maybe I had missed a spot on my blacking out the PCB, but even recoating that area has no real effect. On one unit, I even put in a black construction paper 'sheild' along the bottom of the PCB. This did help in further reducing the red dark values, but the high read values on the navy sample still remain.

So, any ideas? Could I have just gotten 12% of the LEDs with much higher output? Could my PT be damaged by too high a soldering temp, and thereby removed the red filters for the ambient light compensation? Right and left field ideas????

Thanks, Charlie

Reply to
Charlie E.
Loading thread data ...
[...]

Now don't hit me, but did you swap the red LED on a bad unit with one on a good unit and see if the error "follows along"?

That would also easily be tested by swapping.

Take a _very_ close look at a good board and one of the more extreme bad ones. It there any component that is crooked, a shiny surface that presents itself, or any other stuff that could cause a light path?

This is ugly but can help: If you pour little globs of goo (yoghurt?) onto the board, spot by spot, that should eventually interrupt an unwanted light path and cause a drop in reading.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

Are all the red LEDs from the same batch ?

What happens if you measure a bad calibrating ones illumination output with a know good unit? Or swap LEDs/PT from a baddie to a goodie?

Does ambient illumination play any part?

Regards, Martin Brown

Reply to
Martin Brown

Hi Jeorg, No, I haven't tried swapping the LEDs out. They were all attached by the assembler using automated equipment, so I HOPE they are correct. Martin may be right, though, and I may have two different batches of LEDs on the boards.

Those things are tiny, and can be very 'interesting' to solder and unsolder. but you are right, I will probalby have to do it. I have already tried changing out the PT, which is a major PITA as they are through hole parts, and I don't have a good tool for cleaning out the holes...

Charlie

Reply to
Charlie E.

One interesting thought on the multiple batches of LEDs, is that I would assume that they were all purchased on a reel, but the problems were pretty evenly distributed among the boards as I finished them. If they were from a different batch, I would have expected more clustering...

Charlie

Reply to
Charlie E.

Swap anyhow, no matter how hard it is. Before you spend more frustrating days banging your head against the wall. Then if the error doesn't follow along it's probably down to the goo. Yuck. But needs to be done. I hope it's not a lamination issue where the light tunnels along inside the board.

As for solder removal get one of those hand-operated pumps. Mine is an aluminum version with good seals and it can almost suck a fish straight out of the water.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

Sometimes starting with desoldering braid does less damage, plus I save the old dispensers and wind solder onto them ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Order the PCB with black solder mask. See if that helps.

John

Reply to
John S

I make so few mistakes that I am still on my first braid dispenser since highschool ...

Truth is, I barely use it and if I need to then it's not right where I am sitting. Then us RF dudes use the braid of microphone cable or in a pinch coax. Instead of getting up and picking up the dispenser. That's how we gain wait.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

I also use the braid for flexible ground connections ;-)

But I never gain "wait"... I actually have lost 15# of weight since the first of the year... Spehro would hardly know me :-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Mostly I use it for stripping those old panelized breadboards so I can reuse them.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Whoops, sorry. Read something in Spanish, then German, then shifted the wrong gears.

How'd you lose 15#? Fasting?

I can exercise all day long and ... nada :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

Try measuring with an independent sensor first, then hack away. It's the only way to get numbers. WRITE the numbers DOWN (sorry to yell, but you need actual numbers to diagnose the problem).

BTW, did you know you can easily get PCBs made with matt black solder mask?

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

You can sometimes also get black circuit boards, meaning the resin in the FR-4 is pigmented black.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

It looks pretty good with gold flash on the boards too. Matt black is even better for this application.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

Go to a radio shack and get some solder wick. Or a solder sucker.

tm

Reply to
tm

Intense diverticulitis, first suspected to be colon cancer :-(

Then sipping more slowly ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

On chips I've been known to shield parts not wanted to be photosensitive with a solid metal layer.

XFAB now offers some kind of coating layer for that purpose. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Whew, that must have been a scare, especially since you lost Duane to colon cancer.

On account of los doctores or just as a new resolution?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

on

bad

Yep :-( I figured I was the "carrier".

The doctors wanted me to quit altogether, but what's the point of living if it's not enjoyable ?:-)

But I do figure I've cut out about 600 calories a day from my diet! ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         I do not suffer from stress, but I am a carrier.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.