schematics and PCB design software. what's best?

I won't go any lower than MS-Paint :) D from BC

I switched from OrCad a few years ago. Tried the free demo version from this company, liked it and bought a license:

Also, the manager for their US office (Ed) is fluent in Spanish as far as I know, in case that's easier. There is also a short manual for an older version in Spanish on the download area, the new version isn't much different.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg wrote:

Cadsoft used to be in the CAD business. They are now also in the DRM business.

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Before re-using anyone else's library,

*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+c=racked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.des=igns+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+=useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.

Investigate gEDA and KiCAD. Each was created by engineers "scratching an itch".

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That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy. Not an issue for me since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere. Copying stuff and then using it for commercial purposes is, well, not quite within my understanding of ethics and etiquette.

This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users since it does inconvenience hobby users. But ok, they've got to do something against hackers ripping them off. I doubt that their software engineers are working for free. Unlike many other CAD packages Eagle does not require those dreaded dongles. That is a serious plus in my eyes.

BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle. Other comnpanies want serious Dollars for a new library. Cadsoft lets you download it for free. It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by users. Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt and thoroughly check things like footprints before using a part from a foreign library. I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.

Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as OrCad. That was one serious motivator for me to switch. But the main motivator was the support which is absolutely stellar.

My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed. I haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again. Support is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Jun 7, 5:34 pm, Joerg

[.....]

Orcad: Basically none gEDA: Basically none

I've learned the old DOS orcad. I may learn gEDA one of these days but the DOS Orcad still does what I need.

This either means (1) you think commercial support is dicey also (I agree), or (2) you've never asked for help on the gEDA mailing list.

Or both.

For many open source projects, however, if you consider the mailing list to be support then yes, it's dicey - because you're asking volunteers to spend their time on your problems, usually without giving enough back to make it worth their time. However, you can usually pay for commercial support for open source projects, which is no worse than commercial support for proprietary software.

Red Hat, for example, has very good support for what is essentially an open source project. Would you be willing to pay for commercial support for gEDA? Isn't it nice that you can pay YOUR choice of contractor, instead of relying on the manufacturer to support it?

Eagle from raisonance.

Joerg wrote:

*Specifically* it's about the software not warning a **legit** user AS HE IS DOING SOMETHING **in good faith** that he is about to do something against the rules then LATER finding that he has been locked out of his work product.

The only way to avoid this nonsense--besides avoiding Cadsoft entirely.

Library parts?? C'mon.

One of the big selling points of EAGLE (years back) was that you could distribute your files and others could use the demo version to *view* and/or *print* them. Really great for hobbyists (and the pros who publish projects)

--until Cadsoft shot themselves in the foot.

COMPLETELY evades the point. As usual with DRM, the crackers find ways around the limitations and the legit, fully-paid customers are the ones who get screwed.

I used to agree

--until they started spitting on their paid customers in other ways.

I used to agree.

.=2E.if you want to play Russian Roulette.

Again: How do you know that the library isn't infected? How do you get assurance BEFORE THE FACT that you won't be locked out of your documents by using it?

The *least* of your problems with an EAGLE *.LBR these days.

.=2E.and it is now the ONLY way to *assure* no DRM madness.

Amen.

Amen.

If, by "support" you mean **a newsgroup** (2 groups, actually): Yes.

If you mean **A software company that helps fully-paid users to get past company->>>>Some free quality software?

.=2E.until Cadsoft pulls its other hand from behind its back and reveals its next even-more-draconian edict??

ISTM that in-the-know folks are getting tired of all this Dubious Restrictions Malarkey and are now willing to consider open source to get away from it.

re

.=2E.and the *Eschew Brokenware* thing is moving beyond individuals:

. .

When compared to the *old* Cadsoft, I would say "Perhaps".

When compared to the *new* DRM-laden Cadsoft, which is in the process of becoming like so many other software companies, I would say "It's a wash". I find that with software of all stripes, you end up relying on volunteers A LOT.

Whoops, Eagle is not made by Raisonance.

By opening the freshly-downloaded library, exporting it as a script and re-importing it.

It is easy to protect yourself against Eagle's anti-piracy policy, but you have to know how and when to do it.

I agree, though, that those who experience the bad surprises are exclusively the legitimate paying customers. I don't think their policy has stopped anyone from ripping off their product. Who needs to pirate EAGLE anyhow, seeing that there is a free version for hobbyists and a fine-grained palette of differently priced options for various levels of professional use? People who design boards with more than 4 layers or larger than Euro certainly can afford the ~1000 bucks for a decent CAD package.

Yes.

robert

For Orcad I said "none" not to mean "dicey" but to mean something more like "none". Orcad got bought out. It was a little after that that they brought out PCB386. It was on PCB386 that I learned not to bother calling because they couldn't actually provide any real help. Once you got past the "Is it plugged in questions?" they had nothing more to offer.

I was trying to layout a PCB. Because of a bug in PCB386, everytime I added a trace, the program would remove one at random somewhere else on the PCB.

[....]

Currently the answer is "no". I'm not doing my own PCB layouts. If I start doing my own layouts again, going with gEDA is the most likely path.

Yes this is a good thing.

=2E

Altium ? (Protel, DXP and such) They evelove the package at a rather quick pace, but more often than not stick to the second and third-intuitive solution. Meaning it is workable but the learning curve is steep and is kept being this way.

Rene

--=20 Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar -

& commercial newsgroups -

Yes, they should have provided a mechanism that instantly beeps. AFAIK they now do but couldn't avoid that people have old files containing hacked stuff that used to work in 3.51 or whatever and now don't in

4.16. That's because this copy protection stuff wasn't implemented in their older versions.

I mentioned further below that library parts are freely distributed. In contrast to many, many other CAD packages where companies use that as a cash cow (and I consequently do not buy their CAD).

Yes, their implementation was rather .

Nope. If you use a hacked version for hobby that's one issue. But if you use a hacked version, say, as a consultant it'll be only a matter of time until a big egg flies into your face. That happens the instant a client wants to open your files on his legal copy. Now that would be quite an embarrassment, wouldn't it?

Think of it like a bank. A robber manages to pry their money, runs off into the street and thinks he has it made. Gets into his car and POOF, indelible ink oozes all over the bills.

Any more gripes besides this copyright thing? I don't have any, other than the fact that they don't seem to understand how important a hierarchical sheet structure is.

AFAIK it's not libraries but schematics that get infected. Also, the libraries are posted on the Cadsoft server as a bonus service. Even with the freeware version you are allowed to use them. I never ran into this copyright issue but I'd assume anything infected just would not load into my licensed version. I don't think I can be locked out of my own docs when the only version I have and use is licensed by Cadsoft.

Again, for some reason I never had a lib problem. Ever. Other than footprints I didn't like. But since I don't do layouts this doesn't matter that much.

I doubt that any of the libs on the Cadsoft server are infested.

It's more than two. English isn't the only language on the planet ;-)

Cadsoft's support goes way beyond that. Whenever I had issues, usually with netlist ports to other companies' CAD systems, I received a detailed response from a Cadsoft engineer in under 24 hours. Considering that there is a 9h time zone difference that is nothing short of remarkable. And this is not the usual "Is it plugged in?" support, they provided a detailed answer that allowed me to fix the problem.

The best: Their staff participates in the forums and they speak more than one language. More than once have they offered "Hey, if the schematic is confidential just send it directly to us and we'll analyze the problem outside this forum". Recently one even offered support in Spanish, realizing that the poster might feel more comfortable there.

That will always be the case. But the only time I found a level of support like with Cadsoft was back in the old OrCad days. Got stuck with a printer driver in Europe, called the company on Oregon. Suddenly realized that it must be after hours there. Lo and behold someone picked up anyhow and she said she is just cleaning up but will relay my message, plus that I should explain it in a brief fax. Next day I had my answer, three days later a disk with new printer driver edit utilities. From what I understand those days seem to be gone.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I've worked with Altium and it just sucks! Too many pop-ups and a very non-intuitive interface. I assume it is made by people who have absolutely no clue what the program is being used for.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl

Did they outsource that also?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

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Over the years, i tried various versions of Eagle, and was never able to get any one of them to work; at best it was impossible to copy and/or place any simple part (spell resistor, please). So Eagle is totally out of the picture for me *unless* someone would create from scratch, a Win2K hard drive with a completely WORKING version of Eagle, and sell that to me. DipTrace (if i remember the name correctly) is *almost* exactly what i can use; it has some very nice features. But for small parts (SOT23-5 etc) it is not useful.

Robert Baer wrote: [Massive amount of unnecessarily re-posted crap snipped]

EAGLE *does* have an un-Windows-like interface, but Baer is the only person I can remember who couldn't get it going.

I would be surprized if that was the case.

This is typical of the comments on DipTrace:

--well, those that aren't SPAM by the author.

't-picture-that+zz-zz+*-bug-problems+DipTrace+*-you-have-nothing-else-to-stand-on+ww-ww+qq+not-a-nice-choice

It appears to be someone's hobby and is hardly a replacement for OrCAD.

I must be getting better at this, then, because I usually think of the SOT23 size as "big".

But then again, I'm the one who's insane enough to hand-solder 01005 parts.

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It just takes a little practice. For example, in Eagle-speak cut means copy and so on. For me the switch from OrCad to Eagle was similar to learning to drive a car in Scotland, with right-hand steering. After a couple of days it felt comfortable.

Placing is easy. Click ADD, then pick a resistor you like from the discretes lib or from the SMT lib. If you have the German edition it would be called Widerstand. You can select EU style or US style, and all kinds of packages.

C'mon, it ain't that hard. Mine does run on the Win2K PC but I can't sell you my PC because I need it. And I am not going to retire anytime soon ;-)

Don't know that one. Eagle can do pretty much anything, even the teeny tiny SC-75 packages. But I usually don't do layouts myself.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com