Sallen-Key input Z

Butterworths and Bessels, common in instrumentation apps, have only one stage with Q>1 at 6-8 poles, and that Q is low. And in a measurement system, the filters are usually for alias rejection and noise bw reduction, so a little wiggle in the frequency response curve doesn't matter much. DC accuracy sure does matter.

Something like a higher-order Chebychev starts to have serious Qs. An

8th order Cheby has one stage with Q of 14.

I like the transitional Gaussian filters for instrumentation and ARBs.

We just evaluated a 4 GHz Rohde-Schwarz scope and a 6 GHz LeCroy, both

4 channels. Both have fairly ugly ringing on a fast step input, fed from a Tek 11801 TDR step. The R-S uses BNC connectors!

We just decided to get the LeCroy. It's a Windows scope with a gigantic screen and stunningly complex menus, but it does very clever eye diagrams without an external trigger.

I don't know why the don't just deconvolve out the ringing.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com 

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom laser drivers and controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro   acquisition and simulation

Oh yeah, forgot, I had one of them, too. The wife, not the '45.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com 

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom laser drivers and controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro   acquisition and simulation

Adjusting the gains isn't really much of an issue for me. The gain peaking is only a couple of dB in filters that I'd be likely to build, and there's no reason to suppose that the signal spectrum will be at all close to flat, so keeping the filters from clipping becomes more of a system-level problem. Optimizing the filter gains separately isn't a complete solution to the problem anyway.

BTW I looked up Sevastopoulos's US patent 5426393, filed in 1993. (It expires in six months.) He's driving a general filter using the noninverting input of an integrator, and taking the integrator's feedback from the filter output. That'll work fine as long as the filter's phase shift is well behaved at the integrator's corner frequency--in fact it's a nice generalization of the unity-gain Sallen-Key, if not a particularly earth-shaking one.

*------------* In |\ | | 0-------|+\ | Arbitrary | | \ | | | >--*---| Filter |--*----0 Out | / | | | | *--|-/ ccc | Function | | | |/ ccc | | | | | *------------* | *---------*-----RRRRR---------*

So yes, with an additional op amp, a resistor, and a capacitor, it's possible to get good DC accuracy. Of course, that integrator resistor is a sneak path for the input signal to leak into the output, and so will in general degrade the stopband attenuation. So in real life you'd have to split it into probably 3 sections, and add two bypass caps.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net

My 3 GHz TDS694C has BNCs as well, and beautiful smooth 125 ps edges. Not as much fancy software, of course, but for an analogue guy, it's pretty suitable.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA 
+1 845 480 2058 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net

Gasp! ;)

Well, it's actually a division of Teledyne now, and Walter is retired, so it's time to let the grudge go.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

The LeCroy will do PCI Express eye diagrams without a trigger. It apparently takes a long record and accordion-folds it on top of itself to make the eye. The clever part is that it rubber-bands the timebase, instead of just folding at some fixed period, to simulate a clock-recovery PLL. That must be interesting software.

We're doing some PCIe-over-cable products and need to optimize the equalization of cables from 0.5 to 7 meters long. That's not easy to do. The 100 MHz PCIe reference clock is a "hint clock" in that it only suggests to the receiver PLLs what the 8b10b bit rate might be; they then lock to the actual data streams. So the refclock isn't a usable eye diagram trigger, and we can't get at the actual PLLs buried inside the chips on either end.

We're kluging passive pickoffs on the PCIe differential signals, which are approximately fast LVDS. LeCroy wants $7000 for a differential probe.

Their oscilloscope is sure ugly. It looks like Darth Vader's bench scope.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com 

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom laser drivers and controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro   acquisition and simulation

I still have mine.

SK

Cute idea. You could use LTspice to recover the clock. ;)

Good probes cost the earth. You should build a universal one that can be moved from scope to scope, without having to use the proprietary interface. pHEMTs have low enough input capacitance that they're pretty easy to protect--a series cap of 0.25 pF running into a bootstrapped pHEMT follower will get you a nice 5:1 probe with very low noise that's immune to practically anything.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net

SK

We could export a long record to MatLab or Octave and do it ourselves, but that would sure slow down iterations of tweaking the equalizations.

I might go into the scope probe business. If we only "sell" a few to ourselves, it would be worth it.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com 

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom laser drivers and controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro   acquisition and simulation

It even don't necessarily need an additional opamp.

For the triple SK filter John posted a few days ago, I was about to post that he could use the first SK opamp exactly to that purpose, thus having only one opamp offset in the chain. BTW, it, being part of the first filter, might go around that so obvious patent.

--
Thanks, 
Fred.

Hey, Fred, what topology did you have in mind?

This is one possibility.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com 

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom laser drivers and controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro   acquisition and simulation

. Your SK

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            ...Jim Thompson r

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I'd buy one - if I could afford to ... This kind of thing is exactly what this group ought to be good for (and rarely is). The regular recommendations for Williams and Taylor (I've got the second edition - ISBN 0-07-070434-1 - with the ISBN for the third edition 0-07-070430-9 penciled in next to the original number) is another.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

It ups the pole order by 1... fine, but (in the simple case of an S-K low-pass following) adds a REAL zero, so you have to know what you are doing on your pole placements. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

nt

ed,

are 5

s.

l on

ey

A wife isn't a possession. My wife and I established a close relationship back in 1970, but she had a Ph.D. to get so we didn't finally move in together or get married until 1979.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Running the equations, I'm not sure it's worth the powder to blow it to hell, other than it's a "cutesy" way to gain the third pole.

Any following low-pass S-K filter is going to have unity gain anyway.

But in switched-cap usage I can see the benefit. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

My favorite is when an 0402 part disappears from the tweezers, and I'm left wondering which one of several open bins of other 0402 resistors it sailed into.

I don't care if I drink a few 0402s with my coffee -- hey, it's RoHS, right? :-P -- but it's annoying when I have to test every resistor with a DMM before I install it.

-- john

In principle you can wrap it around one of your more favoured topologies, e.g. a leapfrog, and get the DC gain and offset accuracy of a S-K. It puts in a closely-spaced pole-zero pair at some low frequency, which will give rise to some settling whoopdedoos at late times. A more serious drawback is that resistor that bypasses the fancy filter stuff--it'll blow the stopband rejection out of the water unless it's split and bypassed N times.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA 
+1 845 480 2058 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net

I did some root-solving (by hand)... solved it... discarded it >:-} ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.