Storage is one big problem with solar and wind. We are now having big, week-long, deliberate [1] blackouts in big regions of California, and I hear people talking about getting residential batteries. They haven't done the math.
Even funnier, they are talking about using the batteries in their electric cars to power up their houses.
[1] PG&E is delivering a public lesson on the value of electricity.-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
On Sunday, October 13, 2019 at 12:18:09 AM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wr ote:
bid for fossil fuel generation based on cost and risk.
declined as too large and financially risky for the small utility, requiri ng a new bid ? which recently came in showing wind, solar and stora ge dominating the list of offers."
ewables...
2018, the utility published research suggesting that closing coal plants e arly, and replacing them with renewables and energy storage, would save cus tomers $4.3 billion. Around the same time as the above bids, the utility an nounced it would be closing a majority of its coal facilities by 2023 (thus the need for the following procurement), and all coal facilities by 2028. Coal lobbyists, expectedly, have flooded the state?s legislature."s coupled with energy storage". The costs they are expecting to see...
image, from a summer of 2018 NIPSCO RFP, where we saw bids for solar power
charge of $5.90/kW-Mo."
e to have my power supplied this way. It would cut my electric bill in hal f. Good thing my power is local, but not so local it comes from the expens ive nuclear power plant next door.
er energy source. Certainly nuclear is a bad idea going forward.
ople hate those things. Maybe it would be better to put them all in a few locations kinda like growing crops on farms rather than a plant here and a plant there. We can call them "wind farms"... my idea.
at the storage cost will be around a cent per kWh, I think your rational is not complete in some way.
Yes, too expensive, right? Cost more than the Tesla for a 10 years contrac t.
Hour: $1 Day: $24 Month: $720 Year: $8640 Decade: $86400
Rental rate is $1 per hour, whether it's used or not.
They don't give that number, but I have to assume that is factored into the prices quoted. If someone sells you apples, do you care what they paid for the truck that delivers them?
Again, do I care if I am buying the storage and not the storage facility?
Order of magnitude??? You must be used to working with Edison era electronics. Please show your assumptions and math.
-- Rick C. -+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Yes ! absolutely !
In California where the sun actually kind of works, home solar and batteries with inverters can help carry them through times of power outages like this just fine... But those people would have to conserve on their electric usage compared to how cheap and uninteruptable their utility electricity normally is.
Limited to TV, lights, cold beer and a hot soldering iron.
On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 12:49:07 AM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com w rote:
ut
nclouds - there has to be a thick enough layer of suspended small water drop lets in a cloud to give them a chance to collide and fuse into droplets big enough to fall fast enough to survive until they hit the ground.
face, but only reflects about 4% of the incident light. The rest would go s traight through.
The water-air interface scatters about 4% of the incident radiation, so it takes a long series of interactions to scatter light back into space.
If there are a lot of them, a lot more than 50% of the incoming radiation c an end up scattered back into space.
Depends how thick the clouds are, which was the point being addressed.
-- Bill Sloman, Sydney
And oxygen generators?
t
louds - there has to be a thick enough layer of suspended small water dropl ets in a cloud to give them a chance to collide and fuse into droplets big enough to fall fast enough to survive until they hit the ground.
ace, but only reflects about 4% of the incident light. The rest would go st raight through.
Would rain reflect significantly more light than the glass? Every smooth s urface will reflect some light when that light is not coming in perpendicul arly. I forget the name of that law, but it varies from no reflection at p erpendicular to total as a grazing angle is approached. Or is there other reflection from the material being water?
-- Rick C. +- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Solar cells are optimized by assuring they receive direct light from the su n as much as possible. Land is not the quantity to be optimized in most in stallations, so you will want to leave space between rows to prevent one ro w shading the other. This naturally will leave some land not covered with solar cells and will receive diffuse light from other parts of the sky. Gr ass won't grow great, but it will grow. Not sure it will be robust enough for animals to graze on. I know sheep grazing messes up the grass because they don't cut it, they pull it up by the roots. Cows not so much. Cows l ike to rub against things and will knock over anything that isn't pretty fi rmly in the ground, like fences.
So while solar panels at latitudes away from the equator will have room for light to reach the ground, it's not particularly useful for either solar p ower or crop growth other than selected species.
-- Rick C. ++ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On Sunday, October 13, 2019 at 9:26:40 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wro te:
llight rather than absorbing it, though enough cloud eventually scatters mo st of the incident sun-light back into space.
as gotten over any coastal ranges, most of the water it has picked up over the oceans has fallen out as rain.
You are really reaching this time. Why not actually consult a climate refe rence rather than trying to extrapolate with invalid assumptions?
"All that water picked up from the lake normally travels no further than ab out 25 miles away before falling, but it can sometimes travel as far as 100 miles away!"
So 25 miles is a given, 100 miles is a reach. Only a small portion of Indi ana will be impacted by the lake effect.
-- Rick C. --- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
WoW ! Geeez ! Yeah, I would definitely put O2 generator on my list of critical circuits. Never trust only the grid for somethlng as important as that ! At least a UPS !
sun as much as possible. Land is not the quantity to be optimized in most installations, so you will want to leave space between rows to prevent one row shading the other. This naturally will leave some land not covered wit h solar cells and will receive diffuse light from other parts of the sky. Grass won't grow great, but it will grow. Not sure it will be robust enoug h for animals to graze on. I know sheep grazing messes up the grass becaus e they don't cut it, they pull it up by the roots. Cows not so much. Cows like to rub against things and will knock over anything that isn't pretty firmly in the ground, like fences.
or light to reach the ground, it's not particularly useful for either solar power or crop growth other than selected species.
There are farmers in Australia who are grazing sheep between solar panels. One advantage is that any weeds don't get tall enough to shade the solar pa nels.
Presumably one can drive the flock from one paddock to the next and leave i t fallow for long enough to let the grass recover, but not long enough to a llow any weeds to get inconveniently tall.
-- Bill Sloman, Sydney
put
in
clouds - there has to be a thick enough layer of suspended small water dro plets in a cloud to give them a chance to collide and fuse into droplets bi g enough to fall fast enough to survive until they hit the ground.
rface, but only reflects about 4% of the incident light. The rest would go straight through.
Less. It has a lower refractive index.
g in perpendicularly. I forget the name of that law, but it varies from no reflection at perpendicular to total as a grazing angle is approached.
Probably Snells Law
but that emphasises changes of propagation direction.
No. Water is a lot more easily deformed than glass, which can male life mor e complicated.
-- Bill Sloman, Sydney
bid for fossil fuel generation based on cost and risk.
declined as too large and financially risky for the small utility, requiri ng a new bid ? which recently came in showing wind, solar and stora ge dominating the list of offers."
ewables...
2018, the utility published research suggesting that closing coal plants e arly, and replacing them with renewables and energy storage, would save cus tomers $4.3 billion. Around the same time as the above bids, the utility an nounced it would be closing a majority of its coal facilities by 2023 (thus the need for the following procurement), and all coal facilities by 2028. Coal lobbyists, expectedly, have flooded the state?s legislature."s coupled with energy storage". The costs they are expecting to see...
image, from a summer of 2018 NIPSCO RFP, where we saw bids for solar power
charge of $5.90/kW-Mo."
e to have my power supplied this way. It would cut my electric bill in hal f. Good thing my power is local, but not so local it comes from the expens ive nuclear power plant next door.
er energy source. Certainly nuclear is a bad idea going forward.
t
I guess week long electrical outages will be the new normal. Sounds like a huge incentive to install wind/solar and backup. Just make sure the syste m is the type that will power your home when the grid is down.
I'm wondering if this outage is PG&Es way of Enroning California again. Th is is because they can't make their system work without starting fires?
-- Rick C. --+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
bid for fossil fuel generation based on cost and risk.
s declined as too large and financially risky for the small utility, requir ing a new bid ? which recently came in showing wind, solar and stor age dominating the list of offers."
newables...
n 2018, the utility published research suggesting that closing coal plants early, and replacing them with renewables and energy storage, would save cu stomers $4.3 billion. Around the same time as the above bids, the utility a nnounced it would be closing a majority of its coal facilities by 2023 (thu s the need for the following procurement), and all coal facilities by 2028. Coal lobbyists, expectedly, have flooded the state?s legislature."
ts coupled with energy storage". The costs they are expecting to see...
image, from a summer of 2018 NIPSCO RFP, where we saw bids for solar power
a charge of $5.90/kW-Mo."
ve to have my power supplied this way. It would cut my electric bill in ha lf. Good thing my power is local, but not so local it comes from the expen sive nuclear power plant next door.
her energy source. Certainly nuclear is a bad idea going forward.
.g
ut
nMy aunt was in a nursing home on oxygen that she was paying for. My uncle had them use an oxygen bottle rather than the generator because it was a fr action of the cost. Given there is no guarantee that power even under the best of circumstances will remain on, why would someone who critically need ed oxygen be on a machine rather than a bottle? Or why would a machine not have a bottle as a backup?
But then they don't know the power cut was what caused the death and they d on't even know for sure he was a PG&E customer.
-- Rick C. -+- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
ou
lan
ce
so
e sun as much as possible. Land is not the quantity to be optimized in mos t installations, so you will want to leave space between rows to prevent on e row shading the other. This naturally will leave some land not covered w ith solar cells and will receive diffuse light from other parts of the sky. Grass won't grow great, but it will grow. Not sure it will be robust eno ugh for animals to graze on. I know sheep grazing messes up the grass beca use they don't cut it, they pull it up by the roots. Cows not so much. Co ws like to rub against things and will knock over anything that isn't prett y firmly in the ground, like fences.
for light to reach the ground, it's not particularly useful for either sol ar power or crop growth other than selected species.
. One advantage is that any weeds don't get tall enough to shade the solar panels.
That doesn't mean the panels are crammed as close together as possible. If the grass receives sufficient sun and the sheep are sufficiently sparse th e grass can recover. Indirect light only is not likely enough. Heck, it's hard to get grass to grow at all under dense tree cover.
it fallow for long enough to let the grass recover, but not long enough to allow any weeds to get inconveniently tall.
The devil is in the details.
-- Rick C. -++ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
What crop do you think you could grow or harvest in a farm like this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5995191,-2.4819898,3a,45.9y,92.69h,92.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skjLH3UuIwSRu-7wMhdJQeg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I'm not sure, but it won't matter when some of those drivers start driving on the right side of the road and the rest run smack into them! The horror!
-- Rick C. +-- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
om for light to reach the ground, it's not particularly useful for either s olar power or crop growth other than selected species.
ls. One advantage is that any weeds don't get tall enough to shade the sola r panels.
If the grass receives sufficient sun and the sheep are sufficiently sparse the grass can recover. Indirect light only is not likely enough. Heck, it 's hard to get grass to grow at all under dense tree cover.
Dense tree cover blocks a lot more sunlight.
And grass also needs water to grow (which trees are better at extracting th an grass).
Over a lot of Australia, how much you can grow is determined by how much ra in you get.
Solar panels aren't going to stop rain getting into the ground and the grou nd they shade doesn't lose as much water by evaporation.
You may end up getting almost as much grass out of the areas between the so lar panels as you got out of the area when it was an open field.
ve it fallow for long enough to let the grass recover, but not long enough to allow any weeds to get inconveniently tall.
And there are lots of them.
-- Bill Sloman, Sydney
And so we are back to my earlier (unoriginal[1]) point: basically you can use the energy in the light for photosynthesis or electricity; make your choice :)
[1] exemplified by "Without Hot Air".The reason "Without Hot Air" is so valuable is that it cuts through the bullshit coming from both sides of the debate. If forces people to get rid of statements including "huge opportunities" and "huge problems", in favour of physics, chemistry, biology and numbers.
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