Re: What will happen if a terrorist puts a current on the "ground" wire ?

YOU DURTY, LOWDOWN, LYING, CHEATING, TROLL. WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND. TGITM

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THE RATS IN YOUR BUILDING TORE YOUR CIRCUITS TO SHREDS. AND THERES A DEAD BURNT UP TERRORIST HANGING ON THE SERVICE ENTRANCE PANEL. BOOWAHAHAHAHAHAHA TGITM PAT ECUM TGITM

A ring main has a 5.0 mm^2 cross-section split into 2.5 sq mm^2 radials, each of which serves the same socket outlet. We have split-current single phase, you have split-voltage double phase.

| The #14 has an ampacity between | 20 and 25A (60-90 degreesC) but generally this is assumed to be 20A in free | air. Code limits this to 15A in a multiconductor cable (allowing for the | fact that it could be in an insulated wall). It appears that our code is | more conservative than yours.

Appearances can be deceptive. We protect 5.0 mm^2 cross section with 30 amp, you protect 2.06 mm^2 cross section with 15 amp. In fact our code is more conservative than yours.

| Do you really have simultaneously connected | loads of up to 30A?

Yes, of course we do. Do you really have single loads of up to 15A with appliances taking turns to share a socket outlet? Unplug the aquarium pump to plug the

25W soldering iron in?

| Is the wiring that light? (I have seen UK style cords | and they are pretty bulky in general).

A ring main is equivalent to a two-strand conductor, we are not very cost conscious when it comes to insulation. Appliance cords are invariably three-core; line, neutral and earth. That may make them seem bulky.

| Your 13A appliance fuse does no more to protect the appliance than our 15A | circuit fuse.

That is correct, the appliance fuse doesn't protect the house wiring.

| The difference in terms of overload protection is negligible and for a fault | in the appliance- it is toast in any case. What it does is prevent the loss | of other outlets for an appliance fault. That is a benefit. | Yes, we've always had this concept of ever-decreasing fuse sizes, it is hard to break the habit. Perhaps some day someone with devise a breaker small enough to go in one of our bulky plugs and then my soldering iron or bedside lamp will be protected by a 3 amp breaker instead of a 3 amp fuse, but for now I'm stuck with a chain of 100 amp for the house, 30 amp for the ring main and 3-13 amp for the potentially faulty appliance. The stove has its own radial circuit. I dunno about the street, but I do know it has breakers. I've seen one side in darkness while the other side still has power.

| Given the correction- yes, the balance shifts to the UK system. The major | advantage is the higher voltage. I grant that. Whether the overall economics | shifts- I don't know -It really doesn't matter as the final truth is that | we, on both sides of the pond, are stuck with what we have. Here we have | buildings which use a 208/120 Y system but this isn't common (at least in | Canada) for individual homes. The cost of making an overall change would be | horrendous- it isn't going to happen unless the new date of Oct 21 for the | "rapture" is correct- then it doesn't matter.

The change-over could be gradual, on a house-by-house basis. The problem I see with that is all 110 V appliances would become immediately redundant or require an individual transformer or switching regulator. Low cost expendable items (e.g. light bulbs) would simply be discarded when the house was required. Write a code for the new standard and let the home-owner decide when to make the change. He'll eventually be forced to by the rapture of 110V light bulbs. The end of the world comes for the species with the end of the species, through evolution. It would require dual standard light bulbs, doubling the shelf space required in supermarkets. The rapture of 100W incandescent bulbs has already taken place in Europe. Computers and microwave ovens already have switching regulators. Few appliances have a life span of more than 10 years anyway, people tire of their car after three years. Anyone want to buy a nostalgic Leak 33/45 RPM turntable? I can't get any new vinyl records for it.

| You mention the 15A lighting circuits and general circuits . All our 120V | circuits are general circuits- for example, I have a duplex outlet- one used | for lighting and the other fedds a power bar which carries the computer and | all its accessories. Ditto with the TV and its odds and ends. No problems. | I have the same power bar, but that's a deficiency in the house wiring. Not enough outlets, too many plugs. The power bar is limited to 13 amps. Fortunately I can break into the ring main and add as many sockets as I like, but that is work. I would only do it with a major overhaul of the room, when redecorating/remodelling.

| We aren't going to resolve this- I can't see retrofitting and even if I did | (Isolating transformer and replacing wiring with UK style wiring- then | trying to find UK appliances including 60Hz motors-Cheaper to move to New | Zealand where my pension may go further. | Yep. We dinosaurs like the habitat we are familiar with and resist change even if it is beneficial to those that follow us. Roman numerals worked for MM years, still do, so why switch to Arabic? Rapture is XXIst day of the VIIIth month of MMXI, you say? "October" does mean the VIIIth month, right? Change is for the young, but it is difficult when the old won't cooperate. Easy for me to say, I already have 230V single phase, you don't and I'm not changing to 110V.

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WHAT DID I TELL YOU ABOUT FEEDING THE ANIMALS ;-/ TGITM

A ring main has a 5.0 mm^2 cross-section split into 2.5 sq mm^2 radials, each of which serves the same socket outlet. We have split-current single phase, you have split-voltage double phase.

| The #14 has an ampacity between | 20 and 25A (60-90 degreesC) but generally this is assumed to be 20A in free | air. Code limits this to 15A in a multiconductor cable (allowing for the | fact that it could be in an insulated wall). It appears that our code is | more conservative than yours.

Appearances can be deceptive. We protect 5.0 mm^2 cross section with 30 amp, you protect 2.06 mm^2 cross section with 15 amp. In fact our code is more conservative than yours.

| Do you really have simultaneously connected | loads of up to 30A?

Yes, of course we do. Do you really have single loads of up to 15A with appliances taking turns to share a socket outlet? Unplug the aquarium pump to plug the

25W soldering iron in?

--------------------- No more than you do. loads switching on and off, lots of outlets and no breaker trips.

-----------

| Is the wiring that light? (I have seen UK style cords | and they are pretty bulky in general).

A ring main is equivalent to a two-strand conductor, we are not very cost conscious when it comes to insulation. Appliance cords are invariably three-core; line, neutral and earth. That may make them seem bulky.

------------- We have some 2 wire appliance cords-typically for lights and small double insulated appliances-( (again this is a hold over from the past). These have polarized plugs (but only by one prong being a bit wider than the other and it is hoped that the electrician wired the outlets properly) Others are

3-core.

--------------------------

| Your 13A appliance fuse does no more to protect the appliance than our 15A | circuit fuse.

That is correct, the appliance fuse doesn't protect the house wiring.

| The difference in terms of overload protection is negligible and for a fault | in the appliance- it is toast in any case. What it does is prevent the loss | of other outlets for an appliance fault. That is a benefit. | Yes, we've always had this concept of ever-decreasing fuse sizes, it is hard to break the habit. Perhaps some day someone with devise a breaker small enough to go in one of our bulky plugs and then my soldering iron or bedside lamp will be protected by a 3 amp breaker instead of a 3 amp fuse, but for now I'm stuck with a chain of 100 amp for the house, 30 amp for the ring main and 3-13 amp for the potentially faulty appliance. The stove has its own radial circuit. I dunno about the street, but I do know it has breakers. I've seen one side in darkness while the other side still has power.

| Given the correction- yes, the balance shifts to the UK system. The major | advantage is the higher voltage. I grant that. Whether the overall economics | shifts- I don't know -It really doesn't matter as the final truth is that | we, on both sides of the pond, are stuck with what we have. Here we have | buildings which use a 208/120 Y system but this isn't common (at least in | Canada) for individual homes. The cost of making an overall change would be | horrendous- it isn't going to happen unless the new date of Oct 21 for the | "rapture" is correct- then it doesn't matter.

The change-over could be gradual, on a house-by-house basis. The problem I see with that is all 110 V appliances would become immediately redundant or require an individual transformer or switching regulator. Low cost expendable items (e.g. light bulbs) would simply be discarded when the house was required. Write a code for the new standard and let the home-owner decide when to make the change. He'll eventually be forced to by the rapture of 110V light bulbs. The end of the world comes for the species with the end of the species, through evolution. It would require dual standard light bulbs, doubling the shelf space required in supermarkets. The rapture of 100W incandescent bulbs has already taken place in Europe. Computers and microwave ovens already have switching regulators. Few appliances have a life span of more than 10 years anyway, people tire of their car after three years. Anyone want to buy a nostalgic Leak 33/45 RPM turntable? I can't get any new vinyl records for it.

------------ Existing houses would require complete re-wiring and a complete replacement of such things as panels, lights, kettles, fans, stoves, heaters, etc. Dryers would need new motors and lights. This would be quite expensive per home. New homes could be wired as in the UK but assuming the cost of the wiring would be the same - there is still the problem of already owned equipment with good life left- and no resale value. Again expensive. This goes well beyond individual homes but affects industrial/commercial buildings as well. Changing to 240V single vs split phase would not be a problem with regard to the supply- simply remove the centre tap and ground one end. A Rapture of incancescent bulbs is to take place here within the next 3-4 years. My 100 watt bulbs (and some 60 watt bulbs have been replaced by CFL's . Where I live, CFL's are fine outdoors- but where I used to live, they would not start well- too cold.

| You mention the 15A lighting circuits and general circuits . All our 120V | circuits are general circuits- for example, I have a duplex outlet- one used | for lighting and the other fedds a power bar which carries the computer and | all its accessories. Ditto with the TV and its odds and ends. No problems. | I have the same power bar, but that's a deficiency in the house wiring. Not enough outlets, too many plugs. The power bar is limited to 13 amps. Fortunately I can break into the ring main and add as many sockets as I like, but that is work. I would only do it with a major overhaul of the room, when redecorating/remodelling.

-------------------- I have 2 duplex outlets within 1m of my computer-- the power bar is a convenience- I can shut down everything from the switch on the power bar. For the TV. I use 1/2 of a duplex outlet and the power bar senses when the TV is shut off and shuts off the peripheral components. Again convenience is the objective. In both cases, there is some surge protection (??) built into the bar.

| We aren't going to resolve this- I can't see retrofitting and even if I did | (Isolating transformer and replacing wiring with UK style wiring- then | trying to find UK appliances including 60Hz motors-Cheaper to move to New | Zealand where my pension may go further. | Yep. We dinosaurs like the habitat we are familiar with and resist change even if it is beneficial to those that follow us. Roman numerals worked for MM years, still do, so why switch to Arabic? Rapture is XXIst day of the VIIIth month of MMXI, you say? "October" does mean the VIIIth month, right? Change is for the young, but it is difficult when the old won't cooperate. Easy for me to say, I already have 230V single phase, you don't and I'm not changing to 110V.

----------- Not quite as clear cut as that- cost benefits are a bit more murky. Fair enough- I'm not changing either-In my balance of personal priorities- wine and good Jamaican rum are higher. It has been a long time since I owned a code book . For code, I have a good friend who is an excellent technician (and does know a lot more about the UK system than I do Motors, HV transmission, power systems in general, are more my cup of tea.

Thank you for the discussion. I'll be incommunicado for a while and by the time I get back we'll likely both be getting on to a different thread.

Don Kelly cross out to reply

"Don Kelly" wrote in message news:tXiDp.21103$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe17.iad... | | | | | "Androcles" wrote in message news:683Dp.8754$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe21.ams... | | | "Don Kelly" wrote in message | news:Wp_Cp.4601$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe20.iad... || || || || || "Don Kelly" wrote in message || news:t0mCp.5754$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe03.iad... ||| ---------------------snipped---------- ||| Lets take the ring main as a base: 240V 30A 2.5mm conductors ||| there will be 4 conductors out to the extreme end (hot and neutral out || and ||| back) ||| So for a given circuit length the base copper requirement is 4 units ||| 4- 120V 15A circuits have the same power capability ||| However these use #14 AWG wire which is 1.62mm in diameter. || The copper cross ||| section is then (1.62/2.5)^2 =0.41 times that of the UK ring main system ||| the amount of copper per unit length is then ||| 8*0.41 =3.28 units ||| This is an 18% advantage for the radial system. || || I really meant 2.5 mm^2 ||

|| My typo, sorry about that. || ------------------------------------------- || Ah, that makes a difference. Thanks. || So you fuse a circuit using a conductor with a conductor with a 2.5mm | cross || section vs the AWG 14 2.06 mm cross section. | | A ring main has a 5.0 mm^2 cross-section split into 2.5 sq mm^2 radials, | each of which serves the same socket outlet. We have split-current single | phase, you have split-voltage double phase. | | | || The #14 has an ampacity between || 20 and 25A (60-90 degreesC) but generally this is assumed to be 20A in | free || air. Code limits this to 15A in a multiconductor cable (allowing for the || fact that it could be in an insulated wall). It appears that our code is || more conservative than yours. | | Appearances can be deceptive. We protect 5.0 mm^2 cross section with 30 amp, | you protect 2.06 mm^2 cross section with 15 amp. In fact our code is more | conservative than yours. | | || Do you really have simultaneously connected || loads of up to 30A? | | Yes, of course we do. Do you really have single loads of up to 15A with | appliances | taking turns to share a socket outlet? Unplug the aquarium pump to plug the | 25W soldering iron in? | --------------------- | No more than you do. loads switching on and off, lots of outlets and no | breaker trips. | ----------- | But I don't, I have unlimited sockets in a ring main. I leave the toaster permanently plugged in, the microwave permanently plugged in, the refrigerator permanently plugged in, the dishwasher permanently plugged in, I do unplug the food mixer for cleaning, I leave the washing machine permanently plugged in, the phone charger permanently plugged in, lamps permanently plugged in, the soldering iron I put away, I don't use it much. There isn't much I do unplug. Living alone I even leave the vacuum cleaner plugged in as I'm lazy. Having a woman about the place prevents me from doing that, but the cleaner got sick and quit. Must get another.

| || Is the wiring that light? (I have seen UK style cords || and they are pretty bulky in general). | | A ring main is equivalent to a two-strand conductor, we are not very | cost conscious when it comes to insulation. Appliance cords are | invariably three-core; line, neutral and earth. That may make them | seem bulky. | ------------- | We have some 2 wire appliance cords-typically for lights and small double | insulated appliances-( (again this is a hold over from the past). These | have polarized plugs (but only by one prong being a bit wider than the other | and it is hoped that the electrician wired the outlets properly) Others are | 3-core. | -------------------------- | Yes, I know, I lived in the USA for 20 years. I spent 6 weeks in Montreal too, on a contract for KLM who were buying a flight simulator from CAE with my company's visual display system installed. I was dragged in because the simulator was pressurised which required actual Boeing 747 thick windows, they were curved, curved glass is a lens and that prevented us from meeting specification, we couldn't get a pixel to focus from the pilot's eye point and the theodolite said the image was distorted.

|| Your 13A appliance fuse does no more to protect the appliance than our

15A || circuit fuse. | | That is correct, the appliance fuse doesn't protect the house wiring. | | || The difference in terms of overload protection is negligible and for a | fault || in the appliance- it is toast in any case. What it does is prevent the | loss || of other outlets for an appliance fault. That is a benefit. || | Yes, we've always had this concept of ever-decreasing fuse sizes, | it is hard to break the habit. Perhaps some day someone with devise | a breaker small enough to go in one of our bulky plugs and then my | soldering iron or bedside lamp will be protected by a 3 amp breaker | instead of a 3 amp fuse, but for now I'm stuck with a chain of 100 | amp for the house, 30 amp for the ring main and 3-13 amp for the | potentially faulty appliance. The stove has its own radial circuit. | I dunno about the street, but I do know it has breakers. I've | seen one side in darkness while the other side still has power. | || Given the correction- yes, the balance shifts to the UK system. The major || advantage is the higher voltage. I grant that. Whether the overall | economics || shifts- I don't know -It really doesn't matter as the final truth is that || we, on both sides of the pond, are stuck with what we have. Here we have || buildings which use a 208/120 Y system but this isn't common (at least in || Canada) for individual homes. The cost of making an overall change would | be || horrendous- it isn't going to happen unless the new date of Oct 21 for the || "rapture" is correct- then it doesn't matter. | | The change-over could be gradual, on a house-by-house basis. | The problem I see with that is all 110 V appliances would become | immediately redundant or require an individual transformer or | switching regulator. Low cost expendable items (e.g. light bulbs) | would simply be discarded when the house was required. | Write a code for the new standard and let the home-owner | decide when to make the change. He'll eventually be forced to | by the rapture of 110V light bulbs. The end of the world comes | for the species with the end of the species, through evolution. | It would require dual standard light bulbs, doubling the shelf space | required in supermarkets. The rapture of 100W incandescent bulbs | has already taken place in Europe. | Computers and microwave ovens already have switching regulators. | Few appliances have a life span of more than 10 years anyway, | people tire of their car after three years. Anyone want to buy a | nostalgic Leak 33/45 RPM turntable? I can't get any new vinyl | records for it. | ------------ | Existing houses would require complete re-wiring and a complete replacement | of such things as panels, lights, kettles, fans, stoves, heaters, etc.

Sure, but that will eventually happen anyway in the life of the house.

| Dryers would need new motors and lights.

Why? Don't tell me the fan and drum motors are 110V and the heater is 220V? That's ridiculous! Ok... $200 for a new dryer. Fridge too. New kettle, well, you need one anyway, get 3 kW. Stove... should still work.

| This would be quite expensive per home. New homes could be wired as in the | UK but assuming the cost of the wiring would be the same - there is still | the problem of already owned equipment with good life left- and no resale | value. Again expensive. This goes well beyond individual homes but affects | industrial/commercial buildings as well. | Changing to 240V single vs split phase would not be a problem with regard | to the supply- simply remove the centre tap and ground one end. | A

Neutral is NOT grounded except at the supply transformer or it would bypass the ELT (GFP). Think of neutral as a leg without a breaker. This would be the most serious changeover problem where one transformer supplies more than one home.

| Rapture of incancescent bulbs is to take place here within the next 3-4 | years. My 100 watt bulbs (and some 60 watt bulbs have been replaced by CFL's | . Where I live, CFL's are fine outdoors- but where I used to live, they | would not start well- too cold.

Horrid things. I bought a decorative multibulb floorlamp, 5 * 20 watt tungsten halogen with a dimmer in the cord to get around the problem. Much nicer. Three years and I haven't replaced a bulb yet, I'm quite amazed.

|| You mention the 15A lighting circuits and general circuits . All our

120V || circuits are general circuits- for example, I have a duplex outlet- one | used || for lighting and the other fedds a power bar which carries the computer | and || all its accessories. Ditto with the TV and its odds and ends. No problems. || | I have the same power bar, but that's a deficiency in the house wiring. | Not enough outlets, too many plugs. The power bar is limited to 13 amps. | Fortunately I can break into the ring main and add as many sockets as I | like, but that is work. I would only do it with a major overhaul of the | room, | when redecorating/remodelling. | -------------------- | I have 2 duplex outlets within 1m of my computer-- the power bar is a | convenience- I can shut down everything from the switch on the power bar. | For the TV. I use 1/2 of a duplex outlet and the power bar senses when the | TV is shut off and shuts off the peripheral components. Again convenience is | the objective. In both cases, there is some surge protection (??) built into | the bar. | || We aren't going to resolve this- I can't see retrofitting and even if I | did || (Isolating transformer and replacing wiring with UK style wiring- then || trying to find UK appliances including 60Hz motors-Cheaper to move to New || Zealand where my pension may go further. || | Yep. We dinosaurs like the habitat we are familiar with and resist change | even if it is beneficial to those that follow us. Roman numerals worked | for MM years, still do, so why switch to Arabic? | Rapture is XXIst day of the VIIIth month of MMXI, you say? | "October" does mean the VIIIth month, right? | Change is for the young, but it is difficult when the old won't cooperate. | Easy for me to say, I already have 230V single phase, you don't and | I'm not changing to 110V. | ----------- | Not quite as clear cut as that- cost benefits are a bit more murky. | Fair enough- I'm not changing either-In my balance of personal priorities- | wine and good Jamaican rum are higher. | It has been a long time since I owned a code book . For code, I have a good | friend who is an excellent technician (and does know a lot more about the | UK system than I do | Motors, HV transmission, power systems in general, are more my cup of tea. | | Thank you for the discussion. I'll be incommunicado for a while and by the | time I get back we'll likely both be getting on to a different thread. | | Don Kelly | cross out to reply

Ciao

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SHUT UP FOOL! TGITM

YOU TOO ANDORKLES...TAKE YOUR ONLINE ROMANCE ELSEWHERE. TGITM