Re: What will happen if a terrorist puts a current on the "ground" wire ?

May 12, 2011 88 Replies

| >This doesn't look rare to me, it looks extremely common: | >

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| | I get a photo of 3 "pole pig" transformers on one pole.

That's one three phase transformer, they are connected together.

| My experience | is that most poles having "pole pigs" have only 1. Furthermore in my | experience, the "distant 2nd place" for number of "pole pigs" on 1 pole | is not 3, but 2.

Perhaps the picture is a lie... or your experience is naive.

| And, if that was used to provide multiphase power, I see most likely in | "open delta" arrangement of providing 3-phase power.

Ah..."most likely" trumps reality every day, doesn't it?

| Only 2 transformers | are needed to power L1, L2 and L3 of the scheme in

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| One of the two upper transformer secondaries there can be eliminated.

Go ahead, draw the schematic or find one on the web, then we'll all know what "most likely" means.

| | "Open delta" is not the most efficient of copper, but sometimes has cost | advantage of using 2 transformers rather than 3.

Go ahead, draw the schematic or find one on the web, then we'll all know what the "most likely" advantages are.

In many European languages and sometimes even in English, delta is known as the equivalent of "triangle" (e.g. Dreieck in German) connection and the wye as T or the equivalent of "star" (e.g. stella in Italian).

| >Try this instead: | >

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| | 3 "pole pig" transformers on 1 pole, which I find to be rare in my | experience. | | >Now draw its schematic, since you don't like the one I chose. | >

| > In USA, homes generally get two phases of the 3 phases, not one. | | *ABSOLUTELY NOT!* I even admit yelling! | Two bad the facts don't agree with your ranting.

| USA homes generally get what in USA is called "split phase", which is | one phase of 3, from a transformer secondary that is center-tap-grounded. |

Phase is angle. Go ahead, draw an angle with only one line.

| As in, being powered from only 1 "pole pig" transformer secondary, as | in the L1-N-L2 one of the 3 shown in

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That pole pig has two secondaries, antiphase. They are L1 to ground and L2 to ground. L2 is 180 degrees out phase wih L1. I learnt to count 1... 2... when I went to school. "Most likely" you didn't.

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That's what I said.

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The US and European systems are NOT identical except for the voltage and frequency.

On Mon, 16 May 2011 04:51:23 +0000, Don Klipstein rearranged some electrons to say:

Don, give it up. He doesn't understand. Perhaps a language barrier, but he continues to be confused about the word "phase".

On Sun, 15 May 2011 19:24:21 -0700, G rearranged some electrons to say:

What portion do you disagree with?

On Mon, 16 May 2011 07:18:54 +0100, Androcles rearranged some electrons to say:

First off, the schematic does not represent the split-phase distribution in the US. Secondly, if you take the two waveforms in the second figure and *add* them together (i.e. connect one side of the load to the red waveform and one side to the blue waveform) what do you get? The figure at the top. So, you're still wrong.

Is that "l'odeur de troll"?

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

The USA varies widely. Some areas are 3 phase delta configured, and some are 3 phase wye configured. The residential wiring is TRANSFORMED from that to a SINGLE phase feed.

Some residential branches use ONE of the three phases, and PROVIDE a monophasic, center tapped, 240 volt stepped down winding where the center tap then gets grounded at the pole (transformer) and again at the distribution panel.

"Androcles" is an idiot, and has always been so.

You are wrong about the frequency. Us 60, Eu 50 Hz.

pim.

| >

| >Now draw its schematic, since you don't like the one I chose. | >

| > In USA, homes generally get two phases of the 3 phases, not one. | | Is that "l'odeur de troll"? | | | Best regards, | Spehro Pefhany

Wipe your nose and draw the schematic since you don't like the one I chose, trolling f****it. Disregards, Androcles.

Three phase pole pig setups are a dime a dozen in commercial setups.

It's hard to tell but that _may be_ one of the rare high leg delta setups. Definitely not the typical residental setups, which is one can (not three) with three secondary connections.

No, the US residences gets one phase, after all we're fed with a single transformer. Remember, the US system has two of the transformers in your diagram completely absent!

The US system is properly called "split phase" or the Edison system.

You're a Brit, trying to figure out the American system from what you are familiar with and what you find with Google and Wikipedia. Trying to tell Americans what the American system is going to work about as well as me telling you what the British system is. Who knows what quirks you have.

Yes, it is "two" bad [sic] that the facts don't agree with your ranting.

Here's the Wikipedia article on the split phase system:

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The photo of the single phase transformer is a perfect example of what supplies 99.9% of the single family residences in the US.

Let's see... I'll take two D cell batteries and connect the "+" of one to the "-" of the second, and connect this to a wire. I'll take a second wire and connect it to the other "+" terminal and a third wire and connect it to the other "-" terminal. Voila! Two phase DC electricity! John Parker would say so! I'm rich! I'm rich! (rushes off to the Patent office)

That's stupid, even for you, Parker. If you added center taps to the upper two transformers, either you'd get 2/3s of the houses with

120V to ground on their "neutrals", or if you tried to ground those neutrals (as code required) you'll get lots of smoke and flames and blown fuses.

Um, yes they do. Residential power in the US *is* single-phase, split.

No angle is an angle? OK, now draw 1000 angles on that same straight line. So it's infinite phase?

One secondary, tapped in the center.

You certainly were sleeping.

This doesn't look rare to me, it looks extremely common:

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You almost never see that for a | residential service, except maybe for a very large house with a (3 | phase) whole house A/C system, or a business in the home with a 3 phase | load. | | The typical US system has one single phase transformer, with its secondary | center tapped. The center tap is grounded, and there is 120V between | each end of the secondary and the neutral (center tap) and 240V | between the two ends. | In other words two phases are across the horizontal leg with the centre tap and the other two legs are absent.

| Go back to your incorrect diagram at

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eliminate | the L3 terminal and the two transformer windings connected to it, and the | remaining winding is the typical US service, L1 and L2 are the two hots. | Exactly. So Don Klipstein should have written: "In USA, homes generally get two phases of the 3 phases, not one" instead of "In USA, homes generally get one phase of the 3 phases, not two."

The problem with discarding the L3 terminal as you suggest is that it is used with L1 or L2 further up the street to keep the load balanced, so the diagram should have shown two more grounded centre taps, N2 and N3, like this:

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| >| Two 120V legs 180 degrees out of phase with each other comprise one | >| phase, not two. | | >Two phases out of 3 are 120 degrees apart, not 180. | | The two ends of a center tapped transformer are 180 degrees apart from | each other w/respect to the center tap.

They are indeed.

| For 120 degrees, you need 2 | transformers from 2 phases, at minimum.

The grounded centre tap has created two transformers from one, as you can clearly connect a 110 light bulb to either one. For 120 degrees you need the third phase.

| | >Two 220V legs 120 degrees out of phase with each other comprise two | >phases, not one, even with a centre tap at 110V below one and | >above the other, and grounded. | | It's a single phase from 1 transformer.

It's two phases 180 degrees apart from two transformers wound on a common iron core.

Any two phases of a 3 phase star/ | wye service will be 208 volts, not 120V. (the typical 3 phase service | is *not* that at

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)

The typical US 3 phase service *IS* that at

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with two more centre taps added.

------------------------ I bloody well hope not. That is a recipe for disaster unless the center taps were completely isolated from each other- and not to a common ground. Since the secondary neutrals are grounded, in practice , there is no way of avoiding this problem. For single phase on a 3 phase system , generally a

208V/120V Y secondary is used. For normal domestic single phase loads, the primary of the transformer may be between two of the 3 phases (if delta) or from one of the phases to neutral (grounded neutral) if Y. The secondary is then centre tapped single phase( yes- it can justifiably be called 2 phase 180 degrees apart. It isn't called that in North America where it is used but rather single phase 3 wire or single phase center tapped or the Edison system because he developed this for DC (omitting the transformer). In some cases, only one phase and neutral of the primary is run down a street. This is also common in rural areas. Effectively only single phase primary service is provided in these areas. Your picture appears to be a delta/delta setup in which case, there is no center tap involved on any of the transformers and is providing 3 phase service. The secondary voltage may be 240V (the LV terminals look it) and certainly the service leads look that way. It isn't a common case here but may be more common in the southern states where air-conditioning loads are high.

Don Kelly cross out to reply

Being across only one straight leg makes this 1 phase rather than 2. This supplied by one single-phase transformer.

Even though that transformer's primary is across 2 phases of a delta

3-phase primary power arrangement, a load across only 2 phases of a delta is considered a single phase load.

two."

They get one, from one single-phase transformer. If they got 2 out of 3, then their 2 120V lines would be 120 degrees apart (and 208 volts apart) instead of 180 degrees (and 240 volts) apart.

I don't see a diagram here. What I see is a photo of a pole having 3 "pole pigs", unlike most American poles that have any number of "pole pigs" because most American poles having any number of "pole pigs" have 1.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

| >This doesn't look rare to me, it looks extremely common: | >

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| >

| >| You almost never see that for a residential service, except maybe for a | >| very large house with a (3 phase) whole house A/C system, or a business | >| in the home with a 3 phase load. | >| | >| The typical US system has one single phase transformer, with its secondary | >| center tapped. The center tap is grounded, and there is 120V between | >| each end of the secondary and the neutral (center tap) and 240V | >| between the two ends. | >| | >In other words two phases are across the horizontal leg with the centre | >tap and the other two legs are absent. | | Being across only one straight leg makes this 1 phase rather than 2. | This supplied by one single-phase transformer.

Diagram:

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Looks like two windings on one core to me. Two windings, two phases. Case closed. We are all done, Klipstein. Have a nice day.

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208 volts is frequently used within large complexes. Two of three phase.

Greg

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