Re: OT? Germany Shutting Down Nuke Plants

In Germany, the governments taxpayer money on educating the workforce, and the more productive work force this produces lets Germany exort as much as the US despite having about a quarter of the population.

And contractors bribe the city councils to get the contracts.

a better deal, or grow your own potatoes, or move to Sudan where fewer nasty capitalists will exploit you.

Businesses also lie to you about how good their products are and actively conspire to shut down competition. The US is famous for it's obesity problem, which is iin part due to businesses selling food that encourages people to eat more of it than is good for them.

By the US definition of "fine".

Actually, more crime, but when the state was run by the Mafia for years, criminality is normalised.

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"They have taken notice of less colorful but more sophisticated organized criminal groups — those with roots in Asia adept at pulling off casino cheating and marker schemes, and those from Russia and Eastern Europe knowledgeable about financial fraud, credit card and cyberschemes."

That is harder to prosecute, and people tend not to bother.

America is still run on the basis that the people who own the country run the country for their own advantage. Stuff that benefits the population as a whole gets played down in favour of stuff that benefits property owners.

Reply to
Anthony William Sloman
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I just ran across an article about it. Its final cost is 3 times initial estimates.

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Reply to
Dean Hoffman

In Germany, the government spends taxpayer money on educating the workforce, and the more productive work force this produces lets Germany export as much as the US despite having about a quarter of the population.

And contractors bribe the city councils to get the contracts.

a better deal, or grow your own potatoes, or move to Sudan where fewer nasty capitalists will exploit you.

Businesses also lie to you about how good their products are and actively conspire to shut down competition. The US is famous for it's obesity problem, which is in part due to businesses selling food that encourages people to eat more of it than is good for them.

Ayn Rand told him.

By the US definition of "fine".

Actually, more crime, but when the state was run by the Mafia for years, criminality is normalised.

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"They have taken notice of less colorful but more sophisticated organized criminal groups — those with roots in Asia, adept at pulling off casino cheating and marker schemes, and those from Russia and Eastern Europe knowledgeable about financial fraud, credit card and cyberschemes."

That is harder to prosecute, and people tend not to bother.

America is still run on the basis that the people who own the country run the country for their own advantage. Stuff that benefits the population as a whole gets played down in favour of stuff that benefits property owners.

Reply to
Anthony William Sloman

Nuclear plants are an awful lot of eggs in one basket.

Solar farms can be put together in much smaller chunks, and wind turbines come on much smaller modules than nuclear plants.

They are both intermittent sources, so you need grid-scale storage to fill in the gaps. When you integrate them into an existing grid, you get enough geographical spread that you don't need as much grid storage.

On current cost figures, renewables are are quite a bit cheaper than any other source of electricity, so it is hard to see why anybody would bother investing in a nuclear plant. If we get around to manufacturing solar cells in even higher volume they'd probably end up even cheaper than they are now.

Reply to
Anthony William Sloman

It us more than 3 times the original turnkey price was 3.2 billion euros, now it is over 11 billion.

Take a look at the electricity produced in Scandinavian and Baltic states

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You can select a single country or the whole area. Quite different methods are used in each country.

The installed wind capacity is multiple times the installed nuclear capacity, but only rarely the actual wind production reach the nuclear production.

Denmark wit stories about huge wind capacity has an installed capacity of 7 GW, but rarely reaches 2 to 3 GW.

Currently about 50 percent of all production in the region comes from hydro, thanks to the melting snow in Norway and Sweden.

Reply to
upsidedown

In the Nordel area (Scandinavia and Baltic states) the consumption is about 50 GW, thus to supply it from batteries for 1 hour requires 50 GWh storage. Unfortunately solar energy is more or less us less here for 3 to 6 months (2000 to 4000 h/a) during the winter.thus the storage capacity needed is 100 to 200 TWh. A typical car battery is 1 kWh, thus at least 100 billion car batteries are required.If you can put 30 batteries on 1 m2 or 30 million on 1 km2 thus 3000 km2 space needed.

How much does a 1 kWh battery cost ? Perhaps 100 euros or dollars, so the total storage would cost 10 000 billions. You could build 1000 OL3 plants with that money. If you plan to handle the winter only with wind, you may still have to store 1-2 weeks for calm periods or 10 billion car batteries.

To handle the 50 GW consumption with 1600 MW EPR reactors, you just would need 30 reactors, costing at current prices 330 billion and in practice the unit price would drop significantly.

Reply to
upsidedown

Pumped storage, which is relatively easy to provide if you already have a lot of hydropower. would be a better choice than batteries in that region.

storage capacity needed is 100 to 200 TWh.

The Nordel area does seem to go in more for wind turbines, which aren't useless in winter.

Your 100 to 200 TWh is a false estimate,

needed.

The Nordel area does seem to have a lot of hydroelectric power. Most of it seems to be to the North of the Baltic, but cross-Baltic high voltage links are practical and more of them are being built. Pumped hydroelectric storage would seem be preferred over car batteries. Australia has couple of hundred megawatt hours of lithium battery capacity, mainly because electric vehicles use enough of them to get them mass produced. Vanadium flow cells may take over that market eventually, but they aren't being mass produced yet.

The Telsa car batteries are 55 and 75kW,hour devices, so your 1 kWh car battery is presumaby a lead-acid starter battery.

plants with that money.

They'd better not put you in charge of storage procurement.

Except that you wouldn't use car batteries. And international high voltage links provide for rather more geographical averaging than you seem to have allowed for.

Sweden currently gets 45% of its electric power from hydroelectric generation. That could be a lot more pumped hydroelectric storage.

But building thirty reactors would take forever. Solar cells are mass produced. Wind turbines are produced in volume. Nuclear power plants have to be tailor made for their sites, and Fukashima provides an object lesson in how that can go wrong.

Reply to
Anthony William Sloman

The problem is the NIMBY effect. Only in places that already have at least one nuclear rector, the population is more than willing to have more reactors installed on the same site. For this reason, there are going to be clusters of reactors on only a few places.

One problem with current big dumb reactors is that they require an _active_ emergency cooling system that _must_ function a few weeks after chain reaction shutdown. This emergency cooling failed in Fukushima due to the tsunami.

Due to the need for an active emergency cooling system, big nuclear reactors are not built close to big population centers.Thus means that is very hard to use the reactor excess heat for district heating and cooling.

Smaller reactors that survive with a _passive_ emergency system can be built closer to population centers and the excess heat can be used for district heating/cooling. Very small reactors with low temperatures and low pressures could be used for district heat/cooling with no electricity generation, which could be built inside a city, but the general fear for everything 'nuclear' might make it hard.

150 MWth, 50 MWe (KLT-40S) is a quite small chunk. Just waiting for western SMR reactors.

Why do you think Finland is a disaster ?

Finland produces about 40 % by nuclear, hydro and wind both have 10 to

30 % each and 20 % thermal. Of that thermal power about one half is an byproduct of the forest industry i.e. renewable.Only about 10-15 % is fossil and mostly coproduction for district heating.

Keep in mind that the current good hydro situation this spring is due to the melting snow. When this water has been used, some hydro plants might run for only a few hours a _week_ at the end of summer.

Norway has got quite a lot of export income by selling to England, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Finland.No need to burn oil from the North Sea.

Yes, during spring melting water. The nuclear production is greater than wind production.

Denmark is a geographically small country with few energy resources of their own, so they must heavily rely on daily import/export with neighboring countries.That 85 % sounds very optimistic, but perhaps some spectacular accounting might justify such figures :-)

Thanks to the mild winter, nuclear plants and melting snow in the spring, the good hydro situation in Norway and Sweden.

They have shot himself in the foot due to their only renewable resource being the intermittent wind in their small land/sea area.

Reply to
upsidedown

Until another Fukishima reminds everybody that it isn't a great idea.

Nuclear reactors produce long-lived radioactive waste, and nobody has yet set up a long term repository to keep it safe fro the couple of hundered thousand years that have to elapse before it genuinely is safe.

That's one problem. There are others.

is very hard to use the reactor excess heat for district heating and cooling.

Since it hasn't been done yet, we don't actually know whether communities can be gulled into accepting them, and the claims about their no needing active cooling are equally untested. Some of the promotors of thorium reactors who post here claim that they don't produce long-lived radio-active waste despite the fact that "thorium reactors" actually fisson U-233 and the fission products are much the same as you get from U-235 and Pu-239. There's a lot of misleading propaganda being circulated.

The perfectly rational dislike of everything radioactive does create problems.

A big wind turnbine produces 15MW. It is a much smaller chunk.

That was car starter batteries. Tesla sell 55kW.hour and 75kWh.hor batteries and these actually are used in grid scale batteries.

If you used rechargeable nickel-cadmium D-cells, they'd be even more expensive, if equally implausible.

might run for only a few hours a _week_ at the end of summer.

If you use the plant for pumped storage and recycled the water, you could do better

North Sea.

It's a whole year figure.

neighboring countries.That 85 % sounds very optimistic, but perhaps some spectacular accounting might justify such figures :-)

The same sort of accounting that tells you that small nuclear reactors don't need active emergency cooling?

They seem to be coping rather well, for somebody who has been "shot in the foot". If Bismark hadn't stolen

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they might have had more choices.

Reply to
Anthony William Sloman

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