PSoC Express: Does it work for semi-analog designs?

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On one of my latest designs I had a few 0805 and some SOT23. Under the microscope they looked like huge boulders compared to all the rest.

I guess you really have to work on it to get competitive placement costs.

Check out these guys for stuff you don't want to move outside Europe:

Don't know if they are also in Denmark since their locations page requires some stupid flash player. Web site designers are .... no, no, just bit my lips, I am not going to say that.

Yes, that one is nice. Not exactly cheap, between 3-4c in the US.

If you can't get anywhere right now then a consultant might really be needed. I believe that either your own production needs to buy into the future or you need to outsource it.

When it comes to the "convincement meeting" which usually has to include your corporate top brass a very powerful method of convincing most everyone is this: Take a modern miniaturized appliance, for example a cell phone, an iPod, a kids toy. Something that everyone knows. Pry the circuit board out and pass that around. Or, what we often do, take a photo with a small coin next it and show it on the projector. Then ask the magic question "This is the future. If we don't get there the competition will have us for lunch. So how do we get there?"

Well, if the inhouse guys don't have the tools for fine-pitch they need to get those machines then. If they don't want to, what choice other than outsourcing do you really have? Or to say it more bluntly, building only tractors because the folks can only build big stuff isn't going to fly in the long run. The US auto makers have taken that road to some degree. Look where that got them. Every time a new environmental law comes out they whine and complain while their Japanese colleagues roll up their sleeves and get to work.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I have looked at some of the smaller packages, but I often see higher prices for the small stuff. For example:

BC847 (SOT-23): 0.17USD BC846BM3T5G (SOT-723): 0.37USD

Both prices are from mouser just to compare them fairly. So I think in some cases a larger design is actually cheaper since the parts run in high volume from the manufactor and it is a well known production process

looks very interesting - i will try to get a BOM they can qoute (will be very interesting)

The same here - for comparison we give about 1c for a standard BC847B (high volume)

Yes - it seems its time to dig deeper into the production problems

Good recommendation. Actually we often buy pumps from Asia competitors to look how they can do it so cheap. Often they still use leaded assembly and cheap FR4 boards (so our quality guys just say they can sell it so cheap because the quality is bad)

An iPod would be a good choice since it has to have long durability, but ofcourse it is expensive

Thanks

Klaus

That's if you buy one or two. Else the SOT23 is under $0.02 at Mouser:

Never seen SOT723 though.

This could be a difficult mission. Be prepared for some stone-walling and excuses that are brought onto the table. You'll need upper management participation and support as well as iron-clad quotes from outside assemblers for existing products of your company. Then you'll have hard data along the lines of "It costs this much to assemble here and XYZ Corporation would charge us only that much to do it outside".

Why is FR-4 so bad? Believe it or not but some of my designs were even run on good old phenolic. The stuff still lasts decades. There has to be a very compelling reason to go beyond FR-4, even for RF designs. Maybe if your pump controllers have to work in outer space or something like that :-)

As for RoHS, well, don't get me started. That was one of the more stupid decisions by Eurocrats but that's a whole 'nother topic. The main goal should probably be to push for an exemption.

Or maybe they added a humongous profit margin. Kids pay whatever it takes to be at least as hip as their class mates and the industry knows that well. Since you are in Scandinavia you might pick a more local example that is not expensive. I have a Nokia 2115i cell phone which should definitely contain lots of really tiny parts. Still it cost me only about $10 with a $40 usage commitment. Without a long-term plan so besides maybe half of those $40 there cannot be any subsidies or loss tendering in it.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Yes, I have heard the excuses before and since I'm not an expert on pick & places machines its difficult to figure out if they are real or not

Well, I didn't mean FR4 is bad. We use only FR4, but rarther that the asia manufactors use a cheap FR4 with worse quality (so says the q-guys) and thus lower price. Perhaps we should try to do an example design with that....

Couldn't agree more. Whats more funny is that purchasing and production has been working on this for litterally years and then they figure out it really isn't demanded for pump applications

Will try that out. Many thanks for good comments :-)

Regards

Klaus

Well, if other companies are able to handle fine pitch I guess they aren't real. If it's budgeting concerns then that would be a clear indicator to outsource.

Why don't you just do a pilot run at one of the larger SMT assemblers? Pick one near you and visit them for a tour together with your production managers. Then they'd see what is state of the art.

It should be the engineers making materials decisions, not so much QA folks. If a certain lower cost kind of FR-4 is good enough with some margin, why use a more expensive material?

Ouch...

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

rickman wrote: # So now they have a tool that they can claim eliminates writing code. I # have only seen that once before in my career and that was a full page # ad in Byte magazine some 20+ years ago. I never saw anything further # from that company. :^)

:)

# I have been pursuing info on the new PSOC3 chips and I am pretty sure I # have the straight scoop on it now. They will be coming out with two # new PSOC3 lines, one with an 8051 type CPU and one with an ARM # Cortex-M3 CPU.

Interesting - seems Cypress have not bought into the "Cortex M3 replacing 8 bit uC" spin, from ARM :) Cypress doing this sounds more similar to Freescale's push, which is more than one core choice, but more common peripherals.

# Both lines will have the new, NEA (no excuses analog) # programmable blocks.

Oh dear, who makes up these names. Last time I looked at a PSoC analog block, it really did look like an Analog bock done in a digital process : a long way from high performance Analog. I prefer my Analog Blocks to be fully specified, - the buck has to stop somewhere, and names like NEA sound like the triumph of optimisim over experience

# I hope they can also improve on the digital # blocks. I have a small, 10 input multiplexer that I would like to # implement in the PSOC instead of having to add a CPLD. But the current # PSOC can't really do this.

CPLD + uC is a tough target. The uPSDs have this, and there was talk of a 32 MCell CPLD variant, but that never appeared, and they offer versions spec'd with NO cpld at all, to avoid scaring off users who do not want to use a CPLD.

# Don't hold your breath for the PSOC3 parts. They are still banging on # the keyboard writing the upfront documentation, so samples may be # available a year from now.

That's a long way out. Freescale will have their Simplified Coldfire by then, and maybe SiLabs will have entered the 32 bit realm by then as well.

-jg

Lets look at the shotsky affect from the transmittent transformers before going into the next level of transievers where pre and post layout has already been done if the engineering is correct. Whereby the second level of transister layou takes on the second layer effect. Affecting the transister receiving the emination. Light emmitting diodes are the first link in verification and monitoring.

*frequency *occurance *reliability *monitoring *troubleshooting and analysis of circuit pathways should be monitored for farad wavelengths and implications. Let us stick with late 60's design before exploring current and ongoing advances in the industry. Analog to digital will complicate todays discoveries. We still are developing circuits we don't know that work as much as how they work. Digital is an '80s phenomenom. Some circuitry are obsoleted in 2000 using 1940's technology. Remember electricity is still infantily new. Many "U" chips are still not on NASA's reliability charts.

Ok, guys, I went to the seminar today. Very well done, four attendants including me, plus two engineers from Cypress and two from Arrow. That meant we could get all our questions answered. Simple designs that usually take a half hour or more to code could be entered in minutes. It was a hands-on session where everyone brought their laptops and actually did some code. Bottomline I think PSoC Express is definitely worth a good look.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I think you mean "attendees". It took me a minute to figure out that you didn't mean four nubile houris ministering to your needs. ;-)

Cheers! Rich

Hi Joerg, Can you elaborate with the corner points - ie where does this higher level entry, run out of steam ? What is it good for, and where should you avoid using it ?. Did they mention the ARM PSoC ?

I've used the SiLabs forms entry system for peripheral config, and that is definitely a time, and error, saver

-jg

Yep. Sorry.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

We didn't get to that in too much detail. Partly because we all came from very different walks of EE life but mostly because it was a hands-on session and they wanted us all to take the wheel and drive it through 4-5 projects. Measure a potmeter value, process it, send it via I2C to another proto kit part, then via USB into Hyperterminal, and so on. Pretty cool. In a mere 10 minutes you could code a bidirectional I2C to USB converter that actually worked right there in the conference room.

After I asked that very same question the presenter said that you can always port your design into PSoC Designer if you find you run out of control options, and you may often have to. That allows to check how much MIPS and other resources you have left (Express does not, yet). This also allows you to add tricky or timing-critical stuff but once you have touched and changed it with PSoC Designer you cannot port it back to Express anymore.

To me (not a code expert) it looks like PSoC Express is useful when the design requirements can mostly be fulfilled with the included "modules in a can" plus a few more of less complicated formulas for transfer functions. Also for state machines that aren't too time critical.

An example where it saves time: Let's say you never coded a stage with hysteresis because there was no need. So you don't have a "canned" C-routine yet. Express let's you do that by dragging an input module onto the screen, right clicking on it and specifying the hysteresis. No need to write one line of code. Just what us analog dudes need :-)

Yes. So far the Cypress weather forecast indicates that we'll see ARM end of 2007. Also, the wireless range (PRoC) is supposed to be expanded. That would be cool.

Also, it's usually nicely documented. In a way that non-coders can understand.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Annoying to see how fast you can change your mind ;-)

Yes, you can import Express projects into Designer but then you need the extra-cost C Compiler license too! I don't know if it is possible to let the code alone and add prog code simply in Assembler only - to save the money for the compiler. Personally I use a mix of Assembler for interrupts and C for the rest.

There are templates for all ready-to-use modules in Designer to change the standard/startup behaviour of a module. Later on all values can be changed at run-time in your program.

- Henry

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"Joerg" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:b9Qph.19213$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...

Nope, probably I am going to remain mostly analog. Even at 75c it is often very hard to justify a PSoC when analog parts can do the same job for half. But I want to be prepared when the prices come down a bit one day, plus for cases where I'd be dealing with highly non-linear control loops again. Those are tough in analog. What I liked about Express is that it lets us analog guys produce some decent code, and fast ;-)

They gave each participant an Imagecraft C-license for Designer. Should have gone to the seminar 8-)

That's what I'll have to figure out next, whether it is possible to make your own templates. Or in old CAD speak a personal library.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Hello Henry,

Just FYI: There are still three seminars in Finland end of January. But I guess it'll be freezing out there...

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Yes. If you think "analog" then Express is the way you can walk easy.

I heart that Cypress cuts the price "as needed" for devices selled into asian markets.

the

money

Be lucky :-)

the

changed

The templates are loaded if you add a module of your choice. Then you click the values in the fields. That gives you the boot-file automatically generated which loads the PSoC Cypress-provided on-chip firmware after reset to configure the on-chip peripherals. Also in the modules is ready-to-use software included.

For example to add a handy debug TxD:

1. Open Designer
2. Select the TxD module out of the module list
3. place it somewhere. Or just use "place" and let Designer take a free a place.
4. Set the module template values: Baudrate etc.
5. Copy simple sample c code from module description in your main.c code
6. Add a little code to do something with the sample code. A text string or such to send. For ease they provide a CRLF function. Of course you can write your own.
7. Don't forget to select an output pin for TxD.

8 And now the fun part: By selecting TxD line "direct" or "inverted" in the connection matrix between TxD module and pin you can configure your hardware having a (inverted) MAX232 or just straight-line TxD output to the PC serial.

Work is done in one minute. OK, the first time maybe 10 minutes to find especially how the matrix works.

1. Compile and load the hex-file in the PSoC device.

You see, that is not the same as your mentioned CAD template I guess. You can clone projects. Or even change the underlying PSoC device selection and the Designer will change the project approbiate. Mixing Assembler and C is no problem.

Be aware that several module descriptions contain errors or hide things needed.

- Henry

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Even on the "Ostfront" of Germany there is much space left till Finland :-) And we have +10°C degress (Not fahrenheit!). No snow here. Kids are not lucky. January 2006 we had below -20°C and I frozen some of my fingers seriously doing a stupid night walk. Cribbled several months...

But thanks!

- Henry

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"Joerg" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:lEVph.58404$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...

Interesting. Well, production would be in Asia anyhow and then maybe we'll let the assembler negotiate locally.

I was more thinking about Express. Don't know if that can do such tricks. Or if at least templates could be dragged from Designer to Express (projects can't be).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

We had a really deep freeze last night. Looks like it might have taken out one of the pool pumps. Oh drat. Where is that global warming? Certainly not here.

The pellet stove downstairs is running 24/7 and the wood stove cranks full bore all the time. Yet the house will barely go above 66F (17C?). In California houses just aren't built for such arctic weather. Looks like we'll buy six cords of firewood next year, or about three times the normal quantity. Whatever normal is these days.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com