OT: Honest Analysis of Solar Power

99% of people that install PV in the uk do it for not overly sensible reasons, ie political reasons.

NT

Thermosiphoning: Good idea. My water heater is almost directly below the "wet wall". Therefore a heat trap should work nicely. However, I already have an inverted siphon of sorts from the flex hose and am not sure if any additional reduction in convective flow will make make much of a difference. Thanks.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Ours lasted 22 years. Unfortunately, it (and its replacement) are tall, and sited ~18" above the floor. This leaves only about 20" above the tank. Nowhere near enough room to extract the anode rod. They, apparently, make some replacement rods that are "hinged" for such applications. But, that doesn't guarantee that you can get the *existing* rod out (unless it has completely been corroded away).

I've run a network drop to the hot water heater in the hope of automating its operation (part of my automation project). This will allow me to "flush" the heater periodically (without risking cracking the bottle). Someday I may try to replace the gas control valve with an electric one (or, at least an electric gas shut-off) so I can throttle the heater in off-periods.

And, of course, monitor output temperature (inlet temperature is monitored elsewhere in the house) and leak/overflow detection.

[Apparently, when these fail (we were preemptive in replacing ours), it's something that happens relatively quickly]

The demand/tankless water heaters have a controller inside. Probably little more than a PIC. But, the guy who likely services it (plumber) is hardly qualified to make repairs -- other than "you need a new controller board". And, you know manufacturer isn't going to be eager to share service info with homeowners -- regardless of their qualifications.

The same is true of the solar water heaters. But, if we had gone that path, I would have built my own controller instead of relying on overpriced muck from the vendors (I wouldn't have been keen on doing that with the gas fired tankless -- but, routing antifreeze through a collector on the roof has pretty low risk associated!)

Water heaters, here, are mounted up off the floor (18"). A big source of heat loss is through the pipes connected to the tank (think of the heat as "flowing" through a "water conductor".

The solution is to install traps (essentially the same thing as the P trap under your sink -- only upside down) in the pipes. You should also think about an expansion tank in the CW supply line (many municipalities have been cranking up their water pressure to avoid enlarging distribution pipes as demand has increased -- ours is well over 100psi while most appliances expect 80psi max). And, in doing so, consider where you install the shutoff for the CW (so you can isolate the tank from the water system) as there can be no valve between the expansion tank and the water heater.

Not a problem, here, due to the "pedestal". Also, the bottom of the heater must remain unobstructed to facilitate combustion air, etc.

Sure. In my area (Santa Cruz, California) average solar insolation is about 4.5 kW-hr/m^2/day. In the UK, it seems to average about 2.0 kW-hr/m^2/day. At half the available sunlight, the economics are not so wonderful in the UK.

However, I was asking what those that actually install solar systems do in the UK when their house is sold? Leave their expensive investment behind, or take it with them? If they bought a solar power system for political reasons, I would think they would also want solar power at their next home (whether it works or doesn't work).

Hmmm... I wonder if there's a market for fake solar panels? They would produce no electricity, but offer a politically correct addition to the roof line: It can also be used as a place holder for future expansion: Impress your friends and neighbors?

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Our geothermal uses our existing well as the thermal mass/radiator/exchanger. Pumps water out of the bottom (480 ft down), runs it through the system, and returns it to the top of the well (100 ft down). There's 750 gallons of water in the well, so it's pretty effective.

Also increases frequenct of tornados and strenth of hurricanes, and crops love those!

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umop apisdn

extraxt it part way, and bend it or grip it with locking pliers or some other sort of clamp and cut the top end of using bolt-cutters or a hacksaw. repeat as necessary.

if it's on the top floor you could consider installing a small manhole to the attic above it.

--
umop apisdn

Well, the people I know must all be in the other 1%. They did it because they're reasonably comfortably off and the subsidies make it more attractive than leaving money in a savings account.

Cheers

--
Syd

Plants in greenhouses are supplied with all the water and all the other nutrients that they need.

Paleontology tells us that plants in the wild react to higher CO2 levels in the atmosphere by having fewer stomata, so they lose less water while getting the same amount of CO2. Plant growth is rarely CO2-limited.

The starvation wouldn't come about because plants had stopped growing, rather because the plants that we grow for food wouldn't be as well adapted to the warmer climate than their competitors - weeds - and wouldn't grow all that well where they used to do well.

Enough extreme weather, and our arrangements for shipping food from places where we could still grow it to the places where we're accustomed to live might well break down. Population crashes aren't driven by new conditions as such, but rather by the difficulty of adapting to new conditions.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

it up a lot faster than it fossilised. And the more we dig up, the more expensive it gets to dig out the deeply buried stuff that nobody bothered to dig out before.

became obvious to the most dim-witted right-wing nitwit, just before it killed him (or her).

Fossil fuel will not stay cheap forever. However my grandchildren will probably die of old age before fossil fuels become expensive.

Dan

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I have propane. It is almost as expensive as electricity.

Dan

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$33,000 at 2 % interest is $660 / year or $55 a month. But bonds are not the only possible investment. Putting $33,000 in a S & P 500 index fund have historically yielded about $3000 a year or about $250 / month. But not a consistent income.

Dan

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digging it up a lot faster than it fossilised. And the more we dig up, the more expensive it gets to dig out the deeply buried stuff that nobody bothered to dig out before.

became obvious to the most dim-witted right-wing nitwit, just before it killed him (or her).

probably die of old age before fossil fuels become expensive.

They are more likely to die of starvation if fossil carbon doesn't become too expensive to burn as fuel. This is an estimate based on the balance of probabilities, but one less influenced by the Koch brother's short term financial interests than most of the ones you seem to have read.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney 

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volume by a factor of ten, the price per unit roughly halves. The mechanism is rarely the same from one scale-up to the next, but some ingenious fellow will find a way.

business, and then the Chinese did it to them. Solar panels now generate of the order of 1% of the world's power, so maybe they could generate 10% eventually, halving the unit price yet again. Getting another factor of ten growth in manufacturing scale would have them generating all the world's power, which seems unlikely, not to mention requiring a spectacularly large - and obvious - investment.

(yet) but you can get it to do pretty much whatever kind of work you need.

Did anyone factor in the COST of materials, labor and transportation for the making of these panels, or is that yet another yet neglected (and swept under the rug) part that is not supposed to be discussed (AKA "solar power is FREE")?

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have

it up a lot faster than it fossilised. And the more we dig up, the more expensive it gets to dig out the deeply buried stuff that nobody bothered to dig out before.

advanced industrial society as we know it quite a bit before we've dug up and burnt all the fossil carbon, so burning fossil carbon for fuel may remain "relatively cheap" right up to the point where the side-effects make it impractical to keep on doing it

- in the sense that the climate will have gone west to the point where we can't grow food like we used to, or extreme weather will have got to the point where we can't ship the fossil carbon from where we dig it up to where we wanted to burn it.

became obvious to the most dim-witted right-wing nitwit, just before it killed him (or her).

There are so many holes in that idea I dont know where to begin.

NT

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How much you get back at sale time very much depends. In UK the usual answer is zero. And connecting to grid instead of going pv increases house value massively.

NT

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volume by a factor of ten, the price per unit roughly halves. The mechanism is rarely the same from one scale-up to the next, but some ingenious fellow will find a way.

of business, and then the Chinese did it to them. Solar panels now generate of the order of 1% of the world's power, so maybe they could generate 10% eventually, halving the unit price yet again. Getting another factor of ten growth in manufacturing scale would have them generating all the world's power, which seems unlikely, not to mention requiring a spectacularly large - and obvious - investment.

it (yet) but you can get it to do pretty much whatever kind of work you need.

Materials, labor and transportation is what sets the price of the panels you imagine the manufacturers sell them for less?

-Lasse

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probably die of old age before fossil fuels become expensive.

expensive to burn as fuel. This is an estimate based on the balance of probabilities, but one less influenced by the Koch brother's short term financial interests than most of the ones you seem to have read.

Starvation is extremely unlikely. CO2 is added to greenhouses to increase vegetation growth.

Dan

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Do homeowners in the UK take their solar panels with them when they sell their house? If there's not cost recovery, it would make financial sense to not give away the panels for free to the home buyer, and instead move the panels to the new residence.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558 

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