On a sunny day (Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:26:12 -0700) it happened "RumpelStiltSkin" wrote in :
Well, it is like you say: we need no wood, we have concrete, we need no nails, we have glue, etc...
Use the right thing for the right job! The little 8 bit pics are made for asm. If you have problems understanding banks, small stack spaces, and some other limitations / peculiarities, then you likely do not have the brains to fully use C on a much bigger micro either.
PIC serves me well, learning a few special tricks took hours, not more, this is the same for each new micro. It is a very simple instruction set, and yes I know very well how to program in C. But I would _never_ and I repeat _never_ use C on a simple micro like an 8 bit PIC.
On a sunny day (Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:30:17 -0700) it happened "RumpelStiltSkin" wrote in :
Well, I am not getting into a C versus asm war, it is pointless. This also replies to the other poster's 'why'. If you dunno why you are in the wrong field.
In asm, at least you know what actually happens. There is no problem playing around with data and registers.
Timing, adding a few nops, it is fun. Only advantage I would see for C is, that if you have a lot of floating point stuff, you can perhaps do the math in a simpler way. OTOH you can do most stuff in integer math too. The libraries are all there for asm.
No, I like to use the spare resources in a way I have full control over, that is why asm.
It will work out cheaper too, as you can use smaller PICs, could be important if you need a lot.
OK, I am out of this pointless discussion. As a last remark, if you really want bigger, use Linux and gcc on a board with a different processor supported by gcc.
That is an other price point all together. The little PICs are great for lots of stuff. And programming in asm is _not_ more complicated then in C for many applications for those!
I know how to program PICs and it is fun, because you have to think about how to do solve a problem with the small instruction set and limited resources (if it sounds strange that is is fun for me, the reaon is that I'm a programmer, so it's relaxing like Sudoku for non-programmers, which I don't like :-) , but as you say, the advantage is that you have the full control of the hardware. This was my last small hobby project:
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But I disagree that it is not more complicated than programming in C. I think I could implement the monoflop project with 1/5 C source code compared to the assembler code and it would be easier to understand and faster to write, because you can concentrate on the problem and don't have to think about strange PIC things like skip-if-not branches etc. at the same time.
BTW: what do you think of the RS08 series from Freescale?
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Very nice 6502-like instruction set and they are cheaper than PICs with the same functionalities.
--
Frank Buss, fb@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Mostly, but there are sectors where the last 1c matters, and if your client says "SOT23 uC", then you are already constrained.
Of course, as the designer if there are two similar SOT23 uC, and one is better with a compiler than the other, then you have the luxury of choice :) [PIC//Freescale spring to mind here]
On a sunny day (Sat, 4 Oct 2008 21:55:35 +0200) it happened Frank Buss wrote in :
Nice project, yes for signal detection this can be useful.
Here my last PIC hobby project:
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Well, it all depends, I was writing today (or am writing) some intrusion detection and counter measure software in C, (Linux based), it detects those nasty denial of service and even worse Kaspersky related attacks on my name server, and automatically starts counter measures. It is linked list based, and coding time was so far some hours. Been test running now tonight (I am lucky somebody is attacking my port 53 now). I need this so the server stuff can run unmanned for a long time, it sucks if your log in the morning shows you have been made part of a botnet... or similar. This program test frequently.
This programs depends on other stuff (like snort) and scripts, and is simply a bit complicated, in the sense that writing it is asm would take a lot more time (for a x86), but always remember 'Hello world' in asm is only a few bytes, and linking in libc with printf() variants in C takes more space. If all came down to it, then it would (with the right libs you build over time in asm) not be that much more work to do in asm, but it 'looks' simpler in C. But on this system I have practically unlimited memory and resources, so C is nice.
Well I have not used it, so I cannot give an informed opinion :-)
"Jan Panteltje" skrev i meddelandet news:gc86jr$sff$ snipped-for-privacy@aioe.org...
That is exactly why you want to avoid them...
Fact: Programmers are less productive in assembler than in a high level language. You therefore need to show that you have some other benefit from using the PIC, or you have just proven yourself to be a poor engineer.
Funny, I got a ~700 byte ATtiny13 assembler program from a customer who wanted help finding a bug. I rewrote the program in C using the IAR C compiler and managed to reduce the code to ~400 bytes.
I would never *start* writing a program for the AVR in assembler, simply because it rarely makes sense. I find that most AVR customers agree with me.
--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com
This message is intended to be my own personal view and it
may or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB
I'll wager you used something like Turbo, which does not meet the language specifications. I used it for nearly 15 years in embedded work, with very wide applications, and minimum problems.
The above attitude is just what I am regretting. I don't believe the language will return, but Ada is available.
--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]:
Try the download section.
That says, among other things, that the AVR coding is suitable for expressing C source, and that a decent compiler is available. Nobody says that about PIC assembly coding. In my experience attempting to move something to C for the PIC involves loss of clarity, and something like a factor of three in code size. Admittedly my PIC experience is about 10 or 15 years old.
If you want something simple, that can be handled by a PIC and its memory, PIC assembly can be very attractive. Say for a Microwave controller.
--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]:
Try the download section.
I hope you don't use something like BIND? The last time I installed a nameserver and SMTP-server on a Linux system, I installed it in separate chroot-jails. Nowadays my hoster provides these services and I'm using only lighttpd for my webserver, which is small, clean, more secure and faster than Apache.
If you really like to do all by yourself, there are nice features in iptables, if you are using Linux.
Yes, looks like I'm getting old :-) Today most people think it is cool to write PHP or Visual Basic programs, if they are interested in programming at all, but only a few people know the basics, or even like it.
--
Frank Buss, fb@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
The logical conclusion is that with the PIC you have two choices:
Poor productivity, by programming in assembler - or - Poor code density which in the end means high cost.
Can't see how such a part can "serve you well". The comments fromJan Penteltje: "8 bit PIC is just fine." -- Shown incorrect "Small PICs, like the 8 bit, are ment to be programmed is asm." -- Should therefore be avoided "Use the right thing for the right job" -- See above "In asm, at least you know what actually happens." -- read the list file!
Then again, this is well known.
There are other of course other decision criteria.
--
--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
ulf@a-t-m-e-l.com
This message is intended to be my own personal view and it
may or may not be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB
On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Oct 2008 06:29:53 +0200) it happened Frank Buss wrote in :
detection
and
Yes I am using bind, and the very latest too. There is an issue with source port randomness, and transaction id randomness, you can test it here (press on 'Test My DNS'):
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When behind some NAT translation tables, like from a router, the port randomness will be destroyed however.
Well, OK, but the latest attacks are about something like poisoning the database.
I A AM SO GLAD I DO NOT HAVE AN ISP, THEY ALL SUCKED.
mmm, Apache does a good job so far here.
Yes of course I use IP tables, just passed the 1000 entries :-) Imagine 1000 bad guys.
Once in a moment of confusion I bought a book on Visual Basic, thinking it would expand my programming knowledge.. 'Visual Basic 6.0', a thick book... I learned nothing from it, not even how to write anything in VB... Waste of money and time, it seems nothing it can do that I cannot do better and faster in C using existing libs in Linux.
BASIC was OK, though, started on a Commodore PET, later a Timex Sinclair ZX80... But then z80 asm was much more fun.. and the rest follows.
As for php, I use it on the website, it is useful.
In the end maybe 'which language' is not that important, I mean
*if* you can formulate the problem correctly, then you can write the program, you have in fact the solution. But you can do it as inefficient as you like of course :-)
I wouldn't trust a program with such a bad security history (
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). There are good nameservers, which are more secure. E.g. the author of djbdns gives $1000 for the first person, who finds a security hole:
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I didn't test it, because I used a simpler program last time I installed a nameserver (didn't remember the name), because I don't need all the complexity of BIND-like programs. But looks like djbdns is a good program. It is even not vulnerable to the DNS poisoning exploit:
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I'm glad that I don't have to maintain the infrastructure and constantly monitoring security issues, appplying patches etc. Nameserver and eMail just works. It is not the cheapest, but my ISP has more than 2 million paying customers, so there is a good chance that problems are fixed fast.
This depends on where you use the language. I don't write bug-free programs, so I would feel uncomfortable to write a web application in C, because it could have buffer overflows or crashs the whole webserver program. If I write it in Java, I just get a nice exception trace in a log file, but the rest of the server program continues to work and low-level bugs like buffer overflows are impossible in Java (as long as you don't use native parts of the system, like JPEG decoding).
--
Frank Buss, fb@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
On a sunny day (Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:02:23 +0200) it happened Frank Buss wrote in :
Yes I know, and have, that program. I find it a bit complicated and as long as bind works OK see no need to change.
I wrote a small name server myself, for the backup web server that runs from an SDcard in a Linksys wireless access point:
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As that name server is not finished (and perhaps never will) I am not releasing it and its source, also to protect myself against evil forces wanting to see where all the weak spots are. Now that runs the simplest web server you can imagine. Asking for a login keeps most of the bots out.
Well, some have 1 euro / minute help desks, and then once you get a line have to explain to THEM what they need to fix.... I tried more then 7 ISPs, now I have 'direct-adsl', faster, cheaper, better.
I have a bit different philosophy about all this.
These days it seems like the following tactics are used: A lock on every door in the house with 2 keys to open it, and an open front door.
I do prefer a good fence with a good lock, and doors and windows in the house that you just can open without locks.
No, I do not always check for buffer overflow [exploits], for example this news reader will likely crash if some overflow is deliberately created. So what. I do not know a lot about Java, in fact all I know is that it is slow, does not have pointers, that makes it not interesting for me. Now Java-people claim it is not slow, but some also claim the world is flat.
My view is that people who attack the internet, and its applications, an internet that is used by much of humanity, and many things that are becoming more and more essential to us are based on it, should get the death penalty.
Now that will help. And that also goes for those self serving people who publish new attacks every so often, like Kaspersky & friends, lock am up and execute them. It is just their ego and business, the virus writers are THEY, and lots of little script kiddies use their ideas and tools to create havoc.
Turbo -several versions- and Delphi -several versions. Programming Pascal seems like walking in mud. Too many constraints. Can't do this, can't do that.
--
Programmeren in Almere?
E-mail naar nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
On a sunny day (Sun, 05 Oct 2008 09:01:39 -0500) it happened Grant Edwards wrote in :
We have a special thing here, it is called 'direct-adsl', basically the telco gives you a direct line. It is cheaper then via ISP too. But no servers, no email server, no web server, no whatever else ISPs do..., no news server, but a fixed IP address. So I bought a domain, installed smtp, named, apache, proftpd, lots of other cool stuff, and pointed the domain to my IP address. And since then I have been online with this since 2004 without a problem. I can, from the notebook, ssh to my system from anywhere in the world, control the heating, house electronics, even grab satellite TV if the connection is fast enough (it can be compressed).
Also use the notebook as portable TV around the house via WiFi.. PC as media centre worldwide, MS is still dreaming about it... All runs Linux here of course.
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