Inverting a Plot of SEIG Ouput to Produce a Bode Plot (long)

John Popelish suggested this repost.

The self-excited induction generator (SEIG) I am designing is a model of an SEIG that would provide all the electrical needs of an infantry solider. Currently resupply of batteries to infantry occupies a problematic proportion of supply resources. Land Warrior proposes a networked solider. Objective Force Warrior proposes a "mule" to carry these supply loads. I believe a bicycle with energy capture ability is a possible solution to the problems of supplying the Land Warror without the limited mobility of Objective Force Warrior.

With Daqarta, I can produce a Bode plot of SEIG response or Q, but only a plot of driven SEIG ouput as a function of parallel capacitance can provide the actual response of the system. However, a Bode plot of SEIG response would assist development efforts.

Producing a Bode plot is easy with Daqarta. A sound card output is applied across the terminals of the motor with parallel capacitor and the response is measured with the line input or the microphone input. Predicting the response of the SEIG from a Bode plot is difficult as the internal losses cannot be measured with this rig.

Driving one SEIG with its corresponding identical motor produces a certain output at near synchronous speeds if the load is low or nearly null, such as the oscilloscope and DMM voltmeter load on my SEIG, a Burden's Surplus Center 10-1134 motor connected to its mate with an 1/8 inch pipe nipple and a threaded rod coaxial with the shaft.

A standard capacitance substitution box, GC Electronics 20-102, range

0.001 - 11.111 ufd, is not quite adequate for the task. It costs the right amount, about the same as one or two motors, yet offers too little capacitance (C)) to approach SEIG resonance. It does provide a fine increment of C for measuring SEIG output with constant drive frequency.

An extended sub box is on my bench, in construction. It will provide

10-50 ufd and this should be enough, as a trial with 30 ufd produced 1 VAC ouput and with 50 ufd, 0.9 VAC output, indicating operation on the capacitive/capacitative side of the resonance, while the GC box operates on the inductive (low frequency side). Six additional 50 ufd caps are available but may not be needed.

The oscilloscope provides a rather crude frequency measurement but additional intution as to waveform purity. One more relatively inexpensive DMM would provide a clear measure of output frequency. I believe I will find on examination of SEIG output with changing C that the frequency, while not exactly known, changes less than the uncertainty of its measurement. We shall see....

Stepping capcitance in 1 ufd increments will produce 50 measurements of SEIG output as a function of frequency. I don't propose to fit a curve, only to plot one.

Then the fun begins. Each output data point is a point on a Bode plot, but they are all the same frequency so a Bode plot of total impedance versus frequency would just show fifty different positions on a vertical line. That won't say much.

However, since the shape of the curve is symmetrical when plotted with log frequency I believe it will be possible to recomposite the data to produce a true Bode plot without phase data, with frequency (f) on the X axis and something like z or Q on the Y axis, for the one capacitor value producing maximum output. That would say a lot; more than a Bode plot produced with Daqarta would say.

Such a plot would aid a rewinder in choosing a wire size for a stator rewind. The wire would have to be coarse enough to substantially reduce the series resistance (R). By reducing the ratio R/sqrt(L) generator operation *might* be increased from at least 1 VAC currently, at a likely non-resonant capacitance, to at least 80 VAC, the design goal.

The model design load is a white LED signal lamp produced by Dialight, and will function as a headlight on the test vehicle, a Lightning Cycle Dynamics Thunderbolt recumbent bicycle.

Four years have gone into this project. Just about the only thing that has *not* been tried is a car alternator. A backup battery provides self-excitation for an alternator. However, the remanant flux in an SEIG is more reliable than any battery. All the other design loads are computer style power supplies that go off line at 80 VAC and lower, protecting the remnant flux in the generator.

The SEIG has been mounted to the front derailer post on the test vehicle and pedaled chain drive debugged and tested for at least 100 miles. The advantage of pedal drive over wheel drive is that pedal drive has a smaller long term range than wheel drive. I admit wheel drive has a smaller short term range than pedal drive, and have explored wheel drive with a DC generator of hundreds of watts capacity, but the ability of the test vehicle to park and pedal the SEIG satisfies the requirement above. Also rear chain drive has a much longer throw than pedal drive and chain derailment has been a problem; large bumps derail the wheel drive chain and usually destroy the DC generator mount.

"All I am asking" :) is how to invert the capacitance based graph to produce a Bode plot of Q or Z or output as a function of variable f. Daqarta won't do it; it will only produce a graph of Q or Z, not a graph of actual output. It's a complicated system!

Yours,

Doug Goncz Replikon Research Falls Church, VA 22044-0394

Reply to
DGoncz
Loading thread data ...

Now that's an interesting $12.88 beast.

formatting link

--
 Thanks,
    - Win
Reply to
Winfield Hill

"BFoelsch" wrote

1 VAC so far, and more possibly, if the resonant cap is between 30 and 11 ufd.

Do you mean power output? At 1 VAC, it would be pretty minimal. This is mentioned in the OP.

Doug

Reply to
DGoncz

Actually it was Paul E. Schoen's idea. Sorry, Paul.

Reply to
DGoncz

Exactly what type of motor is this? How does it start? Is it electrically reversible?

The fact that a 1/12 hp motor draws 1 amp is a clue that some things are not optimum. It is possible that this motor has decent efficiency but a poor power factor, in which case rewinding the stator won't help anything, or it is possible that the power factor is OK, but the motor is of the shaded-pole type, which is inherently inefficient, or any other number of possibilities. I don't think that stator losses are your problem.

How much output have you managed to get with the generator being driven by an identical motor?

What problems have you had with plain old PM generators?

Reply to
BFoelsch

Oops. Looked at the "wiring tab" of the link and see that it is a PSC motor.

Sorry about that.

Even so, what output can you achieve running the thing at full speed at fixed load?

Reply to
BFoelsch

BFoelsh recommended:

Actually, I am working with a hoarding group based on cognitive behavior therapy to figure out what it will take for me to stop beating this particular dead horse!

In the meantime, I use *some* of my time and resources to keep at it.

You see, I am learning by playing with these inexpensive components. And I'm getting the sub box built for future experiments with larger, faster motors, like Burden's 10-995. That would be driven by a tire, not pedals. I plan a drop-in frame for that one.

It's like a game of limbo; how slow and small can you go? I've just set the bar very low for my first pass. If it screws up my knees aren't going to break the way they would in a real dance contest. Larger is more expensive, remember? So I am incrementing the bar up until I make it through. The rewind is a big cost and somebody will have to tell me it *will work* before I do it, since I could buy a harem of delightful motors for such a price.

Doug

Reply to
DGoncz

Except for the low speed (high number of poles), I think this motor is just about the exact opposite of what you need for an S.E.I.G. It is impedance protected, implying an intentional high winding resistance. And it is a high slip motor (so it can run at well below sync speed) since the O.P. says its synchronous speed is about 400 R.P.M., while its rated speed is 225. This implys deep rotor bars or high resistance rotor bars. It is also single phase, so the rotor has no excitation for a significant part of each electrical cycle.

I would be looking for a high efficiency (design type E, implying low slip, therefore low rotor bar resistance and small air gap and low stator copper and iron losses), 3 phase (for continuous excitation of the rotor field) motor, if I was determined to go with an S.E.I.G.

But for this low power range, I think a permanent magnet AC motor (including hybrid stepper motors) would be so much simpler, because any S.E.I.G may fail to fire up if the rotor remnance falls too low, so starting mechanism must be included in design.

Reply to
John Popelish

1 VAC so far, and more possibly, if the resonant cap is between 30 and 11 ufd.

Do you mean power output? At 1 VAC, it would be pretty minimal. This is mentioned in the OP.

Doug

Yikes! That is just the results of remanence in the rotor! No induction action at all!

Take a look at this link. Much cruder than your intended project, but with better results.

formatting link

I think I'd ditch the SEIG, looks to me like a complete dead end.

Reply to
BFoelsch

ufd VAC switch

0.1 0.4 0000 5.1 0.5 0001 11.4 0.6 0010 16.4 0.8 0011 20.6 1 0100 24.5 1 0101 28.9 1 0110 34.2 0.9 0110 39 0.9 0111 17.3 0.8 1000 22.3 0.9 1001 28.5 1 1010 33.4 1 1011 39.8 0.8 1100 44.6 0.7 1101 50.6 0.6 1110 55.5 0.5 1111
Reply to
DGoncz

Google trashed my post of data with explanation.

Here is (are?) the data from my first "scan" of the generator.

ufd VAC switch

0.1 0.4 0000 5.1 0.5 0001 11.4 0.6 0010 16.4 0.8 0011 20.6 1 0100 24.5 1 0101 28.9 1 0110 34.2 0.9 0110 39 0.9 0111 17.3 0.8 1000 22.3 0.9 1001 28.5 1 1010 33.4 1 1011 39.8 0.8 1100 44.6 0.7 1101 50.6 0.6 1110 55.5 0.5 1111

The setup was one Burden's Surplus Center 10-1134 motor driving another, with both a GC Electronics cap sub box and my 10/20/20 ufd sub box in parallel across the output, and a cheap HF DMM to read 200 VAC. I used a cheap Chinese LCR meter to get the cap values, with the generator disconnected. A future scan will have the same or similar cap values and finer resolution on voltage.

I plotted the data and saw a vague Bode plot shape with peak, two noses, and appropriately shaped sides. This leads me to believe that it

*is* possible to transform the capacitor "scan" to a frequency scan.

Doug

Reply to
DGoncz

I connected the auxiliary winding of the generator across the line and read 28 VAC output with a 20 ufd nominal cap across the main winding! Yipee!

Then I put a *tiny* light bulb across the output. The field collapsed. Awwww...

Doug

Reply to
DGoncz

I did a little research on SEIGs and it appears that an induction motor must be first driven by an AC excitation voltage, and then mechanically driven beyond its synchronous speed in order to use it as a generator. This is the principle used in micro hyroelectric systems. In this case, the generated power is driven back into the AC mains, the watt-hour meter runs backward, and the utility company pays you. I would suppose that, if you had a load connected to the system, you could tweak the speed so that the generated power will just equal the load requirement, and you would not draw any power from the utility line.

The important point here is that the stator of the induction machine must be energized from an external source. One way to accomplish this SEIG might be to use a small DC to AC inverter to power the motor, and then mechanically increase the speed of the motor. You should first load the AC line so that the generated power will not fry the inverter, but I think this should work. You can easily monitor the DC current draw of the inverter and then increase shaft speed until it is reduced to the idle current. One more possibility to try would be to make part of the load an AC to DC power supply to the input of the inverter. Once the system is started, you can probably remove the battery, or use this DC voltage to charge the battery.

One web site that has some more information on this is:

formatting link

There are also articles about this in the following journal (but you have to pay to read full text)

formatting link

If you are looking for the best size and weight to power ratio, you will probably want to look at high frequency motors and generators. In this way, you can reduce the amount of heavy ferromagnetic material.

Paul E. Schoen P S Technology, Inc.

formatting link

Reply to
Paul E. Schoen

(snip) That's the synchronous mode of operation, differing from synchronous motor operation. One could also call it the line-excited mode. The SE in SEIG is "self-excited". Spatially varying remnant magnetism in the rotor, on rotation, produces time varying stator current, which is phase shifted by a resonance of parallel C with motor winding L to produce time varying phased stator current, which induces rotor current flow, and more spatially varying rotor magnetisation, and apparently the process only stops when I^2*R losses and other nonlinear losses overcome the gain of the resonant circuit, hopefully balancing at the design voltage.

Or something like that.

I may as well ask at this point if an automotive alternator can have spatially varying remanant magnetism in its rotor, as well, and whether it can self-excite. Brushes to wear out that way.

formatting link

Well, these are line-excited generators, aren't they? There's a whole host of papers on SEIG theory. I've got a book coming with a good section on induction generators. It was recommended by Glen Walpert.

I do agree with that. This whole project is about how small and slow you can make an SEIG. So far, it's pretty heavy, not real small, but very slow. It may not work at all, but I'm starting small and slow. Light, small, slow, pick any two, more or less.

This was a line-excited mode, but it wasn't run faster than synch speed.

Hmm. Shall I spend my money on a VFD or a rewind? Choices, choices...

Doug

Reply to
DGoncz

I'm still puzzled as to why this device must be a SEIG, and rely on remanent magnetism. However, you might want to rectify the 28 VAC output you have acheived, and store the energy in a large capacitor or a battery.

Otherwise, I do not see any way for the AC signal generated by the windings of an induction motor can produce a frequency higher than the synchronous speed, unless you have a specially wound multi-speed motor. In this case, you could use the higher frequency output of the windings with more poles to energize the windings with less poles, but usually these motors have a 2/1 ratio of speeds. If the motor can tolerate 50% slip, maybe it will work.

Paul

must

driven

the

generated

backward,

load

power

have to

formatting link

way,

Reply to
Paul E. Schoen

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.