how best to get electricity for emergency prepareness

What, pray tell, is "Punka Wallah" ?

...Jim Thompson

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|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
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Reply to
Jim Thompson
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We wish to prepare for emergency - such as power outage because of earthquake or hurricane or flood.

When power goes out we want:

  1. lighting - battery powered florescent lights seem to be best?
  2. phone - charge cell phone battery and direct line phone
  3. laptop computer battery charging
  4. get to watch TV - may be off the air when cable goes out. So TV tuner for the laptop computer
  5. Microwave to cook simple stuff or boil water.

How can we get power source from - car battery? Any small and simple electric generator to charge the car battery?

12VDC to 115AC convert? 400 watt sufficient?

This is what we come up with in our meeting of brain storming. The biggest discussion were about the spoiled food in refrigerators. Your comments and suggestions please.

Reply to
A. Jacobs

Not by a long shot. You don't need 90% of the lights you have. small LED lights, possibly of the shake kind, are the best choice. Use them sparingly. You will find, as I did in the first few days of living for a year on a beach in Baja with no electricity that you don't have a great need for them. You can usually see well enough at night to find the bathroom and you go to bed when it gets dark and get up at first light.

A solar panel will do for charging a cell phone. I'm not sure what kind of a disaster you are planning for but you are not likely to have *any* phone service in a real emergency.

Why? If it's a disaster you will not need it.

Radio. You don't need a TV and it is a drain on resources.

MRE's and propane stoves. A microwave is a drain on resources.

NO. The car should be kept prepared for leaving the area if safe.

NO. This is a waste of power. Most of the energy in the generator is wasted and you waste more in charging, then you waste more using the battery.

A small gas powered generator *IF* you have a large supply of fuel would do no harm but it is much more efficient to use the gas directly for cooking.

Reply to
Mike Painter

for

Your responders so far seem a bit too much upstanding citizens to have mentioned a decent gun with lots of ammo. In a true disaster situation a gun with ammo would be far more valuable than any of the above mentioned equipment and toys. With a gun you can take what you need, defend what you have, and protect yourself against other armed looters/unsavory characters. Depending upon your circumstances, you may want to organize and lead a gang of other people in similarly dire circumstances as your own. A leader is expected to be strong, and possessing a gun with the knowledge to use it would surely help (along with natural and acquired leadership skills). A well organized squad of armed guys is a far more formidable force than a single person acting alone. Aside from being formidable, a team of guys can actually do things, useful and productive things not normally possible for a single individual. With good leadership and some decent creativity you can really do pretty much anything, especially if the entire resources of a whole city are available for looting. Realize that resorting to illegal activity isn't likely truly necessary in most cases, there are usually many ways to skin a cat.

That said, I would disagree with those who claim the microwave is a waste of energy and it is better to just use the fuel for cooking directly. Conventional BBQ grills and whatnot are horrendously inefficient in terms of fuel use. Most of the heat ends up just getting wasted since the grill isn't insulated, nor was it designed for efficiency. A microwave is very nice since it directly concentrates all of the heat straight to the food. Note that heating a meal up in a microwave will not cause your whole kitchen to get hot, whereas heating that same meal with a conventional stove likely will tangibly increase the ambient temperature. Granted a generator isn't very efficient (20%???), but the microwave itself is quite efficient at converting electrical to heat energy right at the food (70%???). Additionally, if you tried to cook your food with something like gasoline you are liable to inadvertently poison yourself. If you've got a propane grill with fuel, I would use it, but if not, I would not try to improvise with gasoline, I would use wood first. Gasoline is far to valuable as an automobile and generator fuel anyway.

Also, I would suggest not drinking or consuming alcohol in your food if things really are desperate. Alcohol is a powerful diuretic, it will dehydrate you, thus wasting valuable potable water. Use high concentration ethanol for cleaning and disinfecting things, but don't directly consume it.

In my mind, by far the most valuable "item" you can stockpile is information/mental preparedness, not actual objects (such as the laptop computer). Obviously some amount of potable water is indispensable, but with enough information and creativity non-potable water can often be converted into potable water, and besides, chances are you probably have a decent amount of potable or semi-potable water already sitting around in your water heater and toilet tank(s). Just don't squander invaluable and irreplaceable resources in times of emergency.

Reply to
Fritz Schlunder

Punka Wallah ! ;-)

Graham

Reply to
Pooh Bear

Hello A. Jacobs,

Care to give us a first name?

We have a fluorescent "camping lamp" that takes 8 D cells or two 6V lamp batteries. That goes a long way provided you stock enough D cells. Do some math: You can find the current draw of the lamp either by the data sheet or by measuring it (use an analog meter). Now go to the Duracell site or another and check the mAh or Ah rating of the D cells. Now you have a good clue of how many hours it will run.

We maintain at least a dozen flash lights as well. Not so efficient but you don't want to have to drag the big lanterns everywhere.

Keep one or better two plain old phones. Those that do not need a wall wart to operate. Cell phone coverage may become spotty when power goes for more than a few days because the cell sites may not have a generator.

Buy a car adaptor. Then you can charge from 12V.

A small postcard size TV is much better. Uses less power. But a radio is more important to us and a good one can run for days without a battery change.

Huh? Forget the microwave, it's a power hog. Become proficient in using the charcoal barbie. I find the Weber the most economical because it can be shut down when done. So, effectively it only needs a few extra coals per session. We can easily cook 20 dinners on a 20lbs bag. Learn how to cook stuff like potatoes and vegetables. Heck, we even do a mean Whiskey-Peppercorn sauce on it.

I believe Honda makes some.

For small stuff but not a microwave or a big TV. We have a 12V 18Ah backup "suitcase" that has a 300W converter mounted to the side. It is kept charged at all times. This has run the wood stove fans and a small lamp for a few hours when the power went.

Fridges and stuff like that draw huge start-up current when the compressor starts. I guess you'd need a huge generator for that and lots of gas (which is dangerous to store). When we had a 24h plus outage here we began cooking stuff on the barbeque. Some foods can be re-frozen after cooking. We ate a lot of roasts and casseroles after that. If the outage would last a lot longer we'd just throw a candle light party.

Best is to try to fake an outage. Pick a day and try to live through it with zero electricity use. That's much easier learning than having to do that when the electricity really goes and it happens to be pitch dark.

Then, make a solid plan and stick to it. The best awareness won't help you if you find that you are down to the last three D cells and the stores are all out of them or closed.

Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

Direct line phones don't use power, it comes along the line.

The long pole in that tent is the microwave. This will need at least 1300W or so, which is a not very small generator.

1) 20W (depending on the amount of lights of course) 2) 5W 3) 10-30W (for active laptop - you don't really want to charge the battery, it's more efficient to run it from battery) 4) 5W

So, you're looking at maybe 55W. Out of a 12V battery, through an inverter, that's maybe 5.5A.

You now want a small generator, with a large battery charger that can soak up the entire output of the generator and stick it in the battery. A 100Ah battery will let you run the other loads for about 16 hours (you don't want to deep discharge it) and then run the generator for 2 hours twice a day to charge the battery back up (250W of charging).

Size the generator so that when it runs, you can run refrigerators and microwaves.

Also consider supplemental insulation for fridges and freezers.

4" of polystyrene around all but the heat exchanger coils can dramatically reduce bills. (Of course, you can get fundamentally efficient appliances too).

However, microwaves are a very inefficient way of heating food - you'd do lots better to find some sort of stove that lets you use the fuel directly.

You get maybe 20% in the generator, and 50% in the microwave, for 10% of the energy leaving as waste.

Of course, there are generators out there that can cope with throttling down to very small loads, not horribly inefficiently. Me, I'd prefer a setup with some redundancy.

Perhaps a cheap generator, a nice generator, and a spare inverter. If the nice generator falls over, use the cheap one, ...

Reply to
Ian Stirling

In article , A. Jacobs wrote: [...]

LED flashlights are about the best for light you turn on and off.

A "coleman" lamp (what the brits call a blow lamp) is a handy thing if you need (not just want) a lot of light at night. The kind that bur white gas will burn gasoline for a while before it gums up.

A cell phone is likely to be useless but a solar charger is not hard to find. One of the wind up radios has a cellphone charger output.

If you've got to, I'd suggest a solar charger for this too.

A stand alone TV takes less power. See your local RV store.

A bar-b-q is what you really want. A microwave draws *way* too much power.

A car has a battery and power connections. Don't overlook it.

Even the small ones aren't very small. If you have to get one, get one that makes "mains power" and charges the battery.

Yes this is a good idea but don't plan on using it much. It runs the battery down fast.

The food isn't spoiled on the first day. If you leave a freezer closed, the food in it will keep for several days. After that, cook everything and eat it. Over cooked meat will keep for a few days out in the open if it is very dry.

You need a first aid kit.

Matches and lighter should be stored in various locations. Fire is a very useful thing.

Keep some water in a large jug in some place strong.

Keep some booze on hand. It will kill the bugs in food and water.

Have a tool kit. Two is better. One kit in the car and one in the house insures that there is one near you most of the time.

Women (and men) should keep some walking shoes in the car. If you are at work when it happens you may have a long walk.

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Reply to
Ken Smith

hmmm, posting this to an electronics NG.

Floods, quakes, hurricane, not exactly the same type of hazard, utterly different requirments Go Butane, keep a full 3Kg bottle(minimum), + 2 ring burner, + piezo lighter forget microwaves, for wimps. Solar panel possibly. Sound of a generator could attract the wrong sort of attention. I've got a 12v recreational battery thats charged once a month,

watch TV? I'd think there would be more things to worry about. Battery am/fm radio. Cell phone, system will be down. land line as well. Laptop, just back it up, it's disposable

deep freeze/fridge? get insurance (and read the small print) scan and email your docs to yourself on yahoo/whatever server and dont delete them, Get enough canned/dry food/rice/beans, enuff bottled water, med supplies,

You left out air conditioning

martin

Reply to
martin griffith

You can get both radios and flashlights that "wind up" and provider their own power. Probably the best, although I think they are pricey.

-- The difference between being diplomatic and undiplomatic is the difference between saying "When I look at you time stands still" and "Your face could stop a clock." ~~ Anon.

Reply to
Kurt Ullman

These inglish geezers.......

Prolly got it from the local Indian restaurant

martin

Reply to
martin griffith

Any and all of my backup equipment is 12VDC compatible. That way I already have 3 large generators in the driveway for supplemental power. I also have a few banks of 12vdc batts, available for emergency lighting and radio power. I have a solar charger for one of the small banks of batteries. It puts out more than my radio draws, so it'll recharge easily any night usage. The laptop tuner is highly inefficient. Radio, or I have a 5 inch b&w tv that switches to radio. I also have a radio that uses AA cells, and a large supply of them. Propane stove, or grill, or both are handy. And consider an adaptor to allow you to use your 20lb bbq grille tank on the smaller propane applicances. We also have small propane heaters, the type that burn with very low or no Carbon monoxide output. Which brings up a point, regardless of temperatures or ease of use, avoid putting any generator indoors, or where it may vent into a living area. For lighting, LED's are great, last forever on a set of batteries. A few of the el cheapo dynamo style radios have LED lights in them, and these radios can recharge their internal cells by hand winding them. Water...not just for drinking. Toilets dont flush without it, and it's one of those creature comfort things that can make tolerating a situation much easier. I once lived at the end of the power lines, last one to get restored in a failure. When we knew a winter storm was coming, the tub, sinks, and everything we could find got filled with water..(Wells dont work without power, and it takes a LOT of power to pump a well) As far as the cellphone goes, on top of what we already use daily, I keep an old flip style analog phone handy too. Much more likely to find a fallback analog system working than someone elses to roam on. This is, however, not as common as it used to be. Canned food, ramen noodles, etc.. will help in such a time too.

john

"A. Jacobs" wrote in news:0h0Ve.117$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:

Reply to
John P Vassel

Most important seems to be a gun to protect yourself from your violent neighbors.

To counteract natural desasters you need to be fit. A couch potato will not make it. Exersize, book some survival training course and do *not* watch "Survivers" on TV. Be open and develop a friendship with your neighbors to help each other in an emergency. Go out exploring your neighborhood on foot, so you know every little pass around. Have an emergency packet ready, so you can leave in time. Don't panic. The OP seems to be either stupid or paranoid. Get a life, man!

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Bordighera, Italy
Reply to
Ban

The "friendship with your neighbors" and "gun to protect yourself from your violent neighbors" seem contradictory. But then I don't know your neighborhood :-)

My community conducts regular formal classes for citizens who form "Community Emergency Response Teams". These are available in many communities across the US.

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There are lots of resources online with good information about implementing emergency preparedness and local response in your own neighborhood. Every family should have a 72-hour kit and be personally responsible for their own fate, at least until help can reach you in case of a major disaster.

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many others...

Reply to
Richard Crowley

for

For God's sake .... just go to Home Depot and buy a Coleman

6250 watt generator for $499-$599 and you'll be able to watch TV, keep the refrigerator running and you can read and use the computer. Don't make this so complicated! If you run out of gas, syphon it from your car.

KM

Reply to
poboxdc

snipped-for-privacy@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote in news:dg2c4m$v08$ snipped-for-privacy@blue.rahul.net:

After Hurricane Charlie,CP reception in my area was reduced but not totally dead.(and the landlines still worked.) I found it useful to have a charging cord for the 12V cig lighter in my car,it allowed me to keep the CP charged.

I also rigged up two 12v fans scavenged from PC power supplies,used a 12v gel cell from my electric scooter to run them,to give me some air circulation at night,it made it much easier to sleep in 95 deg weather.

In addition,I had a 12v portable fluroescent lamp that takes 8 AA cells,the kind meant for use in closets with no outlets,it has a jack for external DC,I made up a cable to connect it to the gel-cell(20AH) for lighting. The lamp is less than $10 USD at Wal-Mart or Lowes.

The power draw from the fans or light was negligible,easily lasted the whole week I was without electricity.

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Jim Yanik
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Reply to
Jim Yanik

"Richard Crowley" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

Not really;One can be friends with neighbors,yet have violent neighbors. Some people are only on the EDGE of civilization.Some people do not act rational under a lot of stress.

Well,looters are not going to loot their own neighborhoods,they will go where there's lots of stuff for the taking,wealthier neighborhoods. Then there's the opportunistic rapists and child molestors.

Police protection may be non-existent,or just unable to respond in time.

"better to have a gun and not need it,then to need a gun and not have one" just like a fire extinguisher.

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Jim Yanik
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Reply to
Jim Yanik

I agree that an LCD TV is the way to go but in the case of NO the transmitters were out.

Radio is indeed much more valuable.

Do you guys in the US know about the clockwork radio ? Doesn't even need batteries.

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Graham

Reply to
Pooh Bear

You forgot a few important things.

  1. For those living in areas with cold winters, running a furnace is of utmost importance (water pipes freezing damage, etc).
  2. Running a sump pump. Without them, many homes would be flooded.
  3. Refrigerators -- a lot of food can spoil (for those of us who do not eat out).

Microwaves are a very high power demand load, but cooking can be done without electricity, either using natural gas, or propane, or coleman stoves.

Emergency preparednes is not something that can be definitively answered in a few posts. It also depends on your situation. For instance, if you have an infant at home in Minnesota, you'd need to be more prepared than if you were a lonely outdoorsman in Texas. Etc etc.

For myself, I have an Onan diesel generator that I bought from the military and restored.

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With it, I could survive very long outages in relative comfort, using it, say, 8 hours per day. It is not enough to run central A/C, but that's fine with me, we have a window unit that we could use for one room.

Batteries are a supplement to generators, but no more than that.

A decent inverter and a decent alternator can be a half decent answer to emergency preparedness. I believe that you can buy a beefed up alternator that is capable of more than just charging a car battery. That way, you can use your car's engine as the prime mover for the electrical generation component.

Having something is, also, usually better than having nothing. So, if, say, you have an inverter based system and find that you cannot use your microwave on it, but can use it to power your furnace at 0 degrees F, that could be a great help compared to having nothing at all.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus12753

Yup--and the lowest drain on resources:

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.. ..

Yup. Others have mentioned white gas stoves and charcoal grills and again I point to the lowest drain on resources:

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.. .. I also like Joerg's suggestion of trying a day off the grid to see what you really NEED.

Reply to
JeffM

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