That looks remarkably clean for that many years. No greasy fingerprints or any of that ;-)
You would not want to know the max pulse current on the one I am involved in right now. Well, about 7x your current. But it doesn't have to live for a long time :-)
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
I know that game... I did the voltage regulators for the TOW Anti-Tank Missile... used steel TO-3's instead of aluminum because of the higher specific heat ;-) ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
I used to use wire-wrap boards with planes on both sides that were similar to that. Even wire-wrap can be pushed pretty fast when the power and ground are quiet. Kinda necessary for 74F or 74AH stuff. Shoot-thru is a bitch.
The USB and SD-card bridge I'm using is like that. The only ground "pin" is the QFN pad. It's a hog too; 300mA.
I looked it over. My board using DIP parts and 1/4 watt axial leaded resistors and a solder-cup DB25 connector requires about 1" wide and about 2" long. The 1" part is for the 10-pin connector edge on each side, but the chip is only
14 pins, so I'm currently only using 7 per side so I could reduce that to 6*0.1" plus a little. Call it 0.7", perhaps. The 2" part is needed for straddle. So I may be stuck with that even in smt, though I might be able to create a "waist" in the middle of the board so that I get more per panel when making them if they are willing to do non-rectilinear cuts for me.I think that 4.5"x6.5" has about 4x6 usable on it and if it can be cut up with dikes or saw, and it looks as it may be possible, then I might get a dozen of my boards out of one. Which would still be about $3 each. I don't need the ground plane for this, though it never hurts -- the strobe is the fastest part of it and it is from 10us to 20us wide. I wire wrapped it and then soldered them down; and even woven a bit to keep the wires from being loose, it works really well.
If there is any interest to speak of (and I'm not holding my breath at all) by the Mailstation group, in developing more of these, then an smt version of the daughter board would seem to be appropriate. I don't need access to the entire 20 pins on the daughter card, as I said. So it could be made to take up very little real board material if odd cuts are allowed to gain access at the connector edges but use only the minimum in between them for just enough structure there.
I'd enjoy it. But for now, I expect to build maybe 4 at this time.
Yes:
I think.
I believe that those religions that make specific and testable claims about our shared reality (nature) will either be found to be consistent or inconsistent as time proceeds. There is no question that testable claims about nature are the domain of science, though. Such things place religion in the position of making science claims. And that is risky to them, if made without reservation and as a matter of dogma. Because it's quite possible that those claims will continue without affirming evidence and with plenty of incongruent theory and that will eventually undermine religious authority, not science authority on their own turf.
I think his concern is valid and soundly reasoned. Religion places itself at risk with such beliefs. Risk that it will be ever retreating its claims away from where science lights up the area and makes it clearly visible. Scrambling for the dark, in which to hide claims from the light of reason, it not a recipe for health.
Well, there you have it. But I _also_ deeply respect the Sermon. And I'm an atheist. So we still have common ground, too, and a very important common ground it is.
I wrote what I think above in this post, just now. It's above here. It's likely to be a fatal flaw to be making testable claims about the very field of study that is the proper domain of physical science, and risking everything on it.
If you read the web site I linked for you, near the top of it, he discusses his conception of a "fatal flaw" and uses it to describe fatal behaviors of both those in science and those in religion. His 5th paragraph in particular defines his meaning and brings out these two contrasting behaviors by both sides.
To put it in a nutshell, it is fatal for religion to make scientific claims and it is fatal for scientists to make claims about values and end purposes of life. Each to their own, I think he's suggesting, and that it will be harmful to either side to tread where its expertise and tools are inappropriate.
I know that you see these as nearly equivalent, but he is really being very precise about his wording. He doesn't say that Christianity is a doctrine living in the dark. And he doesn't, because he doesn't mean to say that. He merely says that a belief in a personal God interfering in the shared reality is problematic. He writes, "The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God."
Now this also includes other religious beliefs that include such a God. Not just much of Christian dogma. However, I know one Christian, at least, who does hold with the idea of a personal God but not one that acts in our world, today. There are many others like him. He is someone else I deeply respect, by the way. An attorney. So there are also some Christians whom Einstein would not caution this way.
I know you think these things are 1:1 the same. But they are not and you need to realize that there is a distinction here that Einstein is making. He is using great precision in choosing his words and you are looking on and not realizing just how precise they are because you are still in the included group being cautioned. But you need to look closely and see that these words are indeed precise and do not hold a
1 to 1 equivalency to Christianity. They simply don't. But granted they do cut towards a larger percentage of American Christians, to be sure.Well, all your statement above says is that you hold some biblical version up as 100% in the way you read it as meaning. You don't nuance this with anything at all. In short, you read words, you interpret them in some fashion, and you simply claim that your reading of what you read is always exact and precise. I find that surprising in anyway and scary, as well.
I _always_ hold everything as tentative and responsive to what the future brings to the table. And it scares me to know that there are people who think that they have a perfect understanding of anything.
Each of the various bibles represent a very complex amalgam of many choices made by researchers, religious and secular, and many fragments of extent materials in various languages. To imagine that there is any one human, or any one perfect interpretation, of what survives today should be shocking on its face.
None of this means that the entire body of remaining scriptural materials is not great stuff to read and study. I respect that and I respect the central teachings found in the Sermon and other parables from Jesus. But those Christians who recognize their own limitations seem a lot safer for me to be around than those who do not seem to recognize these limits and the compexities of scriptural texture.
I'd like some elbow room to live, as well, you know?
I wasn't arguing against the Higgs boson. I'm more inclined to expect its discovery. I was just telling a parable of sorts, hoping you might see how it may be applied back to the original discussion. Apparently the answer is no.
I think it would be just fine to have a chuckling god. Better a sense of humor, than not, I'd say.
Of course, "looking down" at lesser beings and laughing at them from a position of superiority can be a mark of danger, too.
In any case, I don't care if he exists or doesn't, or if he laughs or doesn't. My point was merely to try and explain where Einstein was coming from and it's not relevant to that, either way. Einstein is cautioning humans about hubris, not cautioning a god or gods about anything.
This is an old argument. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Can God create a weight so heavy even He cannot lift it? Etc. Been there, got the badge, etc.
This concept of 'free will' as a way of not having to face the serious question as to whether or not an omnipotent and all knowing God is responsible for suffering and evil and the painful deaths of tiny babies or school children in some bomb attack or anything else about which it must be possible He could help change or avoid, is a very old discussion that has raged without satisfying resolution to this very day. This is the foundation of Deuteronomic Theory and the very question asked in Job of the Old Testament.
I don't buy your easy answer. It's as simple as that.
Hmm. Like I said, I don't buy it. Too easy in giving it all a simple pass.
Well, the point is to keep everything tentative in mind. Feel free to have operating axioms for practical purposes but always be aware that you cannot impose them on others and should not expect others to make the same assumptions you do, here. Leave room for others to have different ideas about all this.
I think, and this is a personal thing, that adherents should work hard to be nearly as well educated and studied. At least, they should do so sufficiently that they have tested what they are being told, using independent tools to get there. Just as I do with climate work, where I do read and accept a great deal that is being developed while also at the same time having worked through at least a somewhat nuanced
1D model of my own and done sufficient numbers of random "spot checks" that I am reasonably assured that I probably would have caught something if a lot of it is in error. All strongly held beliefs should be tested on a par with the influence they have on day to day decision making, I think.Well, this last from Jesus is an important part of the message he was trying to teach about. Which brings me back to the elements of his message:
These are good guides to live by.
:)
Yes, probably.
Of course. Which goes to my point, though of course doesn't prove it.
She's good. And I both love her dearly and respect her deeply.
Well, there's no rule stating that good folks can't flock together. But it also doesn't change the overall statistics, either. Photon statistics at higher flux levels aren't changed just because at very low flux (small, countable numbers) show "flocking" statistics, too.
Okay. I'm going to tentatively grant that the Sermon is a nice piece of work -- a collection of some of the very best the Greeks had to offer in the prior few centuries. And that if Christians _actually_ exhibited measurable behaviors that reflected them, they'd be in a great 'starting position' having them handed to them on a silver platter like that.
Sadly, it's like they are deaf to their own scripture. So it makes no measurable difference in the world.
What in God's name do you think that 300-500 hours a year, for 20 years running and more, represents? Chocolate pudding? Geez, Jörg. What do you want from me, my blood too?
I've paid for my opinion. At least respect that. You don't have to accept the opinion but at least accept that it comes from _some_ meaningful experience that goes just a tad beyond the run of the mill.
Well, as I have said earlier, I have profound respect for any who seriously struggle in their lives to live by Jesus' words. Few do, but those who do have my sincere respect and best wishes, and where feasible, a helping hand as well.
it?
:P
I don't mind if you find certain humans despicable. But don't let their own flaws as you see them mean anything more than that. There is plenty you can study. And I've tried to put out a very simplified slab-model here, trivial almost with only a very few simple relationships, that tells a lot and yet noone has bothered to even take that first baby step towards their own developing understanding so they don't need to depend upon the opinions of others but can work towards an improved self-developed knowledge of their own. I'd help. I'd get others to help, too. And it would hold up against criticism, I assure you.
The problem is getting people to actually WORK for their opinions. Always the problem, I suppose. I know I fight my own tendencies that way, as well. So I'm guilty, too.
I'm pretty sure Jesus isn't the saloon fight type.
Jon
Yep. I'll snip some, it's interesting but gets too long. But don't get me wrong, the snipped responses are very interesting reading. Always enjoying discussions with you.
If qties re low and you don't mind doing the cuts yourself I found that a scroll saw works well.
Aha, now I remember. This was similar to the MyCidco gizmos that people hung on their phone line if they didn't want to deal with computers but still receive email. A blast from the past :-)
I wonder how many people are left using those things. Other used a TV gizmo.
[...]
That may be why so many engineers are atheists. Although we have a surprising number of engineers in our congregation, from Intel etc. I don't hear much about scientific claims at our church.
Then maybe I don't understand what Albert Einstein meant by personal God. For me God is very personal, I pray to Him every day.
I did not say that. I said that I do not agree with people who dismiss the bible as partially wrong. By no means am I an expert on the bible, in fact I regularly stumble upon things that I don't understand. Then I research that and if concordances and similar studies don't yield a satisfactory answer I ask our pastor. Who then really invests the time to explain.
[...]
I can, so I am 100% sure God can :-)
Why cruel things happen is hard or impossible to understand but some day we (well, some of us) will get the answer. Sometimes we already have the answer. Take the recent Japanese tsunami. There are big rocks that were engraved by ancestors way back when, with words like these: Do not build anything below this point or the sea might take it away. Well, they built stuff below those points, including nuclear power stations, and then the sea came and took it away.
You don't have to buy mine. Just one example of many:
2 Cor. 9:7 "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." Now how much more free should it be?
So you think God did not give Adam and Eve free will? Interesting viewpoint ...
Do you really think God made them screw up?
I haven't restricted the room of you or others. I simply said that I disagree with the notion that prayers have no use. We are all free to express our convictions and so I did that.
Yes. But there are some things that cannot (and in my opinion should not) be done by one person alone. For example, I have not gone through four years of seminary, I do not master Hebrew, I do not master Aramaic, so I cannot possibly educate myself on Christianity as well as a pastor can do that.
[...]
Careful. For example we are also instructed (through the Apostle Paul) that he who will not work shall not eat. Emphasis on "will not", as in unwilling or lazy. So we need to discern.
[...]
Do you have any hard statistic there? Credible links?
See, now you are generalizing, "they" are deaf to ...
I can tell you right here that that is wrong. Why else would members from our congregation go into nursing homes, sit with dying people regardless of faith (that is really hard), bring food into homeless camps that can be rather dangerous, and so on?
Ok, sorry, I thought the 300-500 hours were volunteer work that happens to be in connection with Christian organizations.
However, my firm opinion and experience is that without regularly listening to sermons of good pastors it isn't really possible to gain a deep understanding of Christian faith. Unless you are able to read Hebrew and Aramaic, understand the meaning behind whole parapgraphs in those languages, and have gone to full seminary. Pastors regularly put
10h or more into the preparation of one single sermon.This is why I rely on a pastor when in doubt. In the same way our pastor relies on people like me when the wireless stuff is on the fritz even though he is rather technology-versed.
[...]
I don't find the people despicable, I find their behavior despicable. Because it was.
[...]
Certainly not. But he blew a gasket, for good reason, and acted upon it. A purely pacifist person would have staged a peaceful sit-in or something. Throwing over tables in a marketplace with the stuff flying all over the place isn't exactly peaceful ;-)
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Me, too. It's worth the minutes I spend. I'm glad you allow me some of your time on this and do appreciate it.
Okay. Would at least probably want to silkscreen a line to follow, I suppose.
I picked up three of them from office depot when they were dumping new units at $5 each. So I have a few. Also bought a few more over Craigslist a year or two back. Maybe one on ebay, though I'm not sure about that. Anyway, I have 6 now and didn't pay much. They run on AA batteries (which means no special, expensive, or eventually obsolete battery system), run a long time on them -- weeks, easily, and have a full very practical keyboard that is easy to use.
The HP Omnibook was a great little device (I have one of those, too) that also used AA batteries, ran Windows 3.1, had everything (DOS, Windows, and the applications) burned into rom so there was zero startup time, and it would also run for weeks on those AA batteries. Had a pop-out mouse that worked on any tabletop, as well. Nothing like it, since. When you closed it, the static ram was 'battery backed' and just sat there. So when you opened it again, it was instantly right back where you were with precisely ZERO delay, with the cursor exactly where you left it. If someone walked over to talk with you, you just closed it and never thought even for a second that the interruption was a bother. When you opened it up, you just continued on where you left off without the slightest invonvenience at all
The feature sizes used on modern x86 devices use so little power per transmission gate/inverter per clock, that I can only imagine how little power would truly be required if such fabbed technology were applied to the older processor designs (the 80386, for example.) Imagine an 80386 (well less than a million equivalent transistors) done on 22 nm and clocked on
33MHz? It's power consumption would be darned near zero and it would have fantastic yields on a wafer being so small.Sometimes, you just don't want a billion equivalents clocked at 3GHz.
Physicists are probably the worst. Maybe 95% are self- described atheists by some poll I remember seeing two years back. Engineers are all over the place, from my experience. Their education, while nothing to sneeze at, is spotty (some get through all four years, some don't; etc.) and varies widely and their specific training and exposure to mindsets required is also different.
Engineers can certainly be a rough lot at times, but I much prefer the way a physicist will hand you your heart on a platter when tearing a hole in you for being an idiot. I learn a great deal more, and a lot faster, that way. It hurts at times, but after a few yeas of what seems like abuse you realize that the whole process of finding flaws in what is being said is about everyone benefitting from the process and that right after having your whiteboard presentation turned into a perfect example of what a stupid idiot you are and feeling like no one will ever want to be near you again, they turn right around once that is over and start helping you fix the flaws and telling you that the ideas were interesting, too, just wrong for now.
It's all about everyone getting better and the focus is on finding out if an idea can survive a trial of fire. No one cares where an idea comes from. It's not personal. Once you learn that, it's a process you seek more of, not run away from. No one in physics is above criticism, either. No one is untouchable or above the fray. Every idea is criticized and tested where possible.
It's that attitude about grinding ideas into the dust to see if they can survive for a short time (nothing survives forever), though, that also bristles at the heirarchical authority structure that determines "knowledge" in organized religion and the existence of untouchable documents of "authority" (scripture.) Different mindsets, entirely.
He meant, by "personal God," the idea of a God that __takes__ action in nature and modifies things today. Not all Christians believe that God goes around tinkering now. In other words, some Christians feel that the kitchen activities are over, the cake is cooked and done, and he's letting it all play out without becoming involved in day to day stuff. By Einstein's definition, that attitude would avoid crossing swords with physicists' work. And would not fit his "personal God" definition.
So "personal God" means "acts today and changes stuff" to make it simply put.
Well, at some point you arrive at someone then who can say what is what. And that person is a perfect authority, if not you. Now if you say that no such person exists, then the meaning of being 100% correct loses all real effect for obvious reasons and we are back to an imperfect undertanding of a document you argue is perfect. Which is no different than the document itself being imperfect for all practical purposes.
Oh, well. :)
Another easy escape from a difficult quandary. My answer is easy. We create justice and fairness through our own actions. (Or else there is a fairly sociopaathic God who doesn't mind subjecting the poor ants to torture (the bible says he did in a couple of places, in fact) or allowing them to come to torture because he frankly doesn't get bothered by it.) What is impossible is the idea of a just God that is all powerful and all knowing and just letting that stuff happen. We are feeble and we suffer and we don't know that much and no more than I could stand by while a tiny baby is being smacked around, arms broken by some parent or passerby, I wouldn't expect a God to stand by in such situations. It goes beyond my ken, anyway.
I think Jesus' words trump all else. Period.
He knew what would happen, granting assumptions here. That's not the same thing. But it's like giving a child a task a parent _knows_ will result in total failure and where that parent also has set up the punishment and will implement it, as well. In other words, the parent knows that they will be subjecting their own child to terror and suffering as a result and set everything up all the same with perfectly known outcome in the end.
Disgusting. To put it mildly. Evil, I think.
Okay. I'll leave it there.
I still think the continuing education is a responsibility and an obligation. If I make decisions about my own life and those around me, that affect them (and I do), I like to be sure that I've done my due diligence. That's _also_ my responsibility, too. And no one else's. That falls on my shoulders and cannot ever leave it. Now, if this were just some mild opinion and it didn't affect me and others around me, then... who cares? But I don't think that is what we are talking about here.
Jesus' words trump all else.
You aren't aware? I'll go look it up. It's been years now (20.) But boson flocking is well known. (Doesn't happen with fermions with Fermi's exclusion principle acting.)
Just a term I used. Pick another one, then.
Like I said, the existence of a few small flocks doesn't change the fact that on an average over a global perspective the effects don't add because they aren't correlated. It's random noise. If Christianity had a "signal" that could accumulate and sum up out of the noise floor, it would be visible on a global scale.
It is in connection with both Christian and non-Christian (public schools, autism society, etc.)
I've had _some_ training in translation. I'll stop there.
Still think the responsibility for continuing education rests on you and everyone else with a capacity to learn and this kind of life changing belief system. But that's just my personal opinion and no more than that.
Jon
But don't you have to subscribe to Cidco then? Amazing that it still exists, now that so many people use smart phones.
That's what I am lamenting since years. The art of minimalist power consumption has been largely lost. I think HP may have been the last company who mastered this in the US, and Casio in Japan.
Yes, very different. Physicists are usually more thorough than we are but the downside is that their projects can take forever. And sometimes you just don't have forever to get to market, that's when one needs roll-up-the-sleeves type engineers.
Ok, then very clearly I believe in what he calls personal God.
That's what I believe, God is with us and can intercede for us, right here, right now. Miracles still do happen but we often dismiss them or aren't thankful for them.
This has to do with my faith. God has given us scripture as, if you want to call it as an acronym that way, "Basic instructions before leaving earth". God is perfect and so is His word. That is what I believe. Do I have 100% proof? No. Will I ever have such 100% proof? No. Do I need
100% proof? No.Ask Linda or Dorothy about it. I would be very surprised and seriously disappointed if they said it ain't so for them, too.
[...]
As you said when you pointed to the sermon on the mount, that is indeed our job. But we fail at it over and over again.
This happens because sin has come into the world, but this would really go far OT now.
As part of the holy trinity he is one with his father. And his father gave us scripture. So that would mean the words in scripture would trump all else. And I agree with that :-)
Now you are putting assumptions into God's will. How do you know he let this happen on purpose? It says right there in the bible that he was disgusted with what man did, not just Adam and Eve but many, many other times. Disgusted means it was most certainly not His will. He leaves us free will and we have the choice to screw up or not. And we always do.
[...]
You and I are both people who can go into their offices, crack a big book and slurp up the information. And then make design decisions based on what we learned. But there comes a limit. Our own due diligence may simply not be good enough in many cases. When it comes to understanding the bible I clearly think that is the case for almost anyone. Even pastors. I've heard many say so.
We can't leave huge chunks of the bible off and say they don't apply to us. This is what the church did hundreds of years ago and why Martin Luther rebelled against them. He had to.
No, I meant something that backs up your statement about Christians not having a higher portion of people who get involved in charitable causes. IME they do. Not because of being better people, not at all, but because they are constantly reminded to do it.
[...]
If you go into a region of utter poverty you'd see it.
[...]
Ok, there we differ then. Even Jesus instituted a circle of disciples to go out into the world, act as teachers, and make more disciples. For good reason.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Nope. It's perfectly good sitting there as a typing machine. Think of it as a simple, electronic typewriter with the ability to save and edit your typing. The subscription part of it was to get all that typing OUT of the machine. Without it, all that work is stuck inside. Until now!! Now, you can just hook up my little baby and download all day long into a PC. Nifty, really. Simple adaptation to avoid all that subscription crap. Anyway, I don't think anyone is taking on new clients for that -- it requires a modem and who uses those anymore? So the devices are garbage to everyone but me. ;)
Yeah. It really annoys me no end. Here we are in a world that has so very much and, for example, the camera companies like Canon order their distributers to grind up old 8 megapixel cameras rather than sell them because they want the new $1000 cameras to sell more. And if they sold the older cameras when the new ones came in, they older ones would "eat the lunch" of the newer ones, so they imagine. So instead, they actually force them to grind them into powder so they are dead certain they won't undercut "the marketplace."
We live in weird times.
I would simply love to have a 22nm 80386 chip. A 80486DX in my very best dreams. Clockable down to zero. What I could do with that!!
Different purposes. Yes. A physicist may spend their entire life doing nothing but disproving ideas and supporting other ideas and never uncover a single new thing and still be very successful for all that. It's important to confirm that QED works, for example, even if everyone already knows it will. Something _might_ come up. And it's about contributing to knowledge, which is both exclusion and inclusion. It's the boundary edges themselves which represent created knowledge. Anything that is ALWAYS TRUE or NEVER TRUE is completely useless and totally without any value at all. It's what makes something true here and false there which means something.
Engineers move knowledge into life. Scientists make it their life to move knowledge.
Obviously, capital pays engineers because they create monetary wealth and without them capital would be nothing. Capital doesn't pay scientists doing long term fundamental research much, unless there is some way to turn that into wealth -- which almost by definition makes it engineering and not science, anyway. It's one of the reasons there is a flight out of science and into engineering as soon as there is a good opportunity to do so. A bright scientist can make a LOT more money there. Of course, we are lucky that at least some are principled and despite the temptations do stay and push knowledge around. And a few get access to fancy equipment, like the LHC, so they stay for that reason. But it's been a serious flight over the last 30 years or so.
In contrast, you used to have the VERY BEST scientists actually teaching real classrooms "back in the day." That's pretty much all gone now.
Yes, I gathered as much. You are a run-of-the-mill Christian in that sense.
I just wanted to make certain that you understood that Einstein was being very precise in his words and I wanted to be sure you followed that precise line. It's troubliing when someone goes to great lengths to be precise and a reader fumbles the ball and goes away with a mushy concept instead.
Got it. You would be one of those cautioned by Einstein, then. Not every Christian would be, though.
Both of them are more on the academic side of things and very interested in talking this stuff through with me. Which is one of the reasons we spend and enjoy time together. They understand where I come from, do not insist that I make the same assumptions they do, and _work_ at providing me with very concrete, specific, and detailed points. They believe there is a rationality to it and are willing to walk me through things with them. I appreciate this because it both honors me and my respect for rational thought and it honors what they believe by taking it seriously and not just saying things are so "because they are."
We use parallel tracks (for example, actual Greek laid out on wide pages with broken spacing and interspersed with Matthew, Mark and Luke texts along with others [gospel of Thomas, for example] that aren't actually in the bible but do exist outside of it and just didn't make the bar at the time), photostats of ancient documents, supporting materials for translation as well as ancient social contexts for help in interpreting them, etc. Hebrew is very complex, as the ancient uses aren't entirely known anymore and vowels were left out leaving open more than a few possibilities from our modern perspective. We don't know how it was even pronounced back then. In any case, it takes work and thought and I like it when others are willing to share that effort together.
There is very little surviving from the time and place in question (there were a few centuries in Europe of expunging and burning or destroying anything that might conflict with established doctrine and they were VERY GOOD at that work and of course the sad, wanton burning of everything at Alexandria [which if anything does, deserves hell for any and all involved in that]) and so supporting data is thin to non- existent.
I spend time in part because it is interesting, in part because there is some real value there, and in part because I'm immersed in a very highly religious and very strongly willed group of fundamentalists who, given a chance, would be out for my blood, quite literally. (Knowing how they think and what they read to guide their behaviors and actions is a matter of self-survival, in a way. Doesn't mean I believe that it is anything more than the work of real people.)
It's a goal, a pathway we walk. Not a destination along the way. We never get there. But we keep on the path and watch the signs in the hope that we appear to make at least some progress in the right general direction. I'm comfortable with just trying. The problem is, most folks don't try very hard at all.
I still cannot accept or embrace the idea of a "good" god (or gods) that could stand by, having the power to make a difference and not doing so. It's profoundly ugly to imagine anyone who could stand by. I would refuse to endorse anyone capable of it. Even for a moment. Sorry about that. But there it is.
But there is scripture and there is scripture. The scripture with Jesus' specific words and parables trumps scripture written by Peter or Paul, no question. The best stuff comes from the Master, not the students.
I'm not cutting him any slack. Sorry about that. He's evil if he can do that. Of course, I don't believe in this fairy tale except as a human product. Luckily, its all just a fiction to me. So it doesn't bother me any more than reading some scifi story's character would.
You are talking in extremes here. I'm not discussing perfection by any stretch. You've taken it to that point. I'm talking about matching up importance with responsibility as a matter of fair proportion. Due diligence required for buying a hand towel is one thing. Due diligence required for performing a difficult surgery upon someone is quite another. You match the one up with the other. That's rational.
If you figure something is important enough to change the way you live, to change the way others around you live, and you even decide to broaden that where you affect the children of others, let's say, then the due diligence required before you do that is quite a lot different than it would be if all you were affecting is yourself, in your bathroom space.
When others' lives are concerned, you take your own responsibility seriously. I mean that. For example, driving a car on the public roads. You not only take your own life in your hands, but the lives of countless others each and every day. It's serious and it demands good education and training consistent with that. Religious belief, for some, is just as serious and just as deadly and affects a great many people. You don't need more than a day's time reading the news to know exactly what I'm talking about here.
I think it would be difficult for someone to study too much, given this kind of impact on the world, you and me, and so many others. If someone "kind of believes" but doesn't act much upon that belief, then I'm not so concerned. Study a little, maybe. But if someone is so serious about it that they go to special military training grounds (I'm now thinking of Dominionists), then I think there is a pretty high degree of __personal__ responsibility of study that goes along with this.
Like with like, I think. If its important and affects you and those around you, there is a responsibility for education and experience that goes along with that. If it isn't, then less. In law, its the same thing and pretty well understood. There are higher degrees of responsibility and lesser degrees. The standards of care required for an experimental power supply in the hands of an electronics professional as an end user is quite different than the standards of care required for a commercial power supply in the hands of ignorant end users. And rightly so.
If you just affect yourself with your belief system, then only you can be hurt if you are ignorant of scripture. If you affect a lot of other people by your beliefs, and in significant ways, then I think a just and fair standard of care should require a lot more of you.
Didn't say leave it off. Just said that whereever you see a conflict, or an apparent one, I'd go with the Master. Of course, you are free to choose otherwise.
Oh. Depends on what you mean there. That's going to be complex because I probably would need to communicate a lot more to you before we could proceed on that. More than I have time for, right now. I wanted you to have my opinion about this, but that's all for now. It's just my opinion based upon _some_ experience. But I don't hold it as certain and it does NOT much affect anything I do, either. So it's not really important to worry over. If you see things differently, we can just leave this. But just be aware that I see no meaningful difference in bad, good, or neutral behaviors in my own experiences. You are, of course, free to your own perspective.
I've been in those situations and helped people in them. I mean, utter. Stuff you don't find much in the US. El Salvador, in particular.
That's an easy excuse, to my view. Better, I think, is to match up responsibility with potential effect. Greater importance and effect demands greater personal responsibility. It's not a step function, here. Not that you either _work really hard_ or you don't. But a slope and you work according to the effect and importance of it.
Pretty basic and simple, really. Even a child can grasp that principle.
Jon
Wow, you must really like this thing. I can't remember it anymore but IIRC the keys were kind of smallish (on the MyCidco device). I use a Samsung NC-10 for typing, that's about the minimum in keyboard size I can comfortably handle.
[...]
The Compaq Contura series had something like that. It's too long ago but I think it fell to a really low clock rate if you just typed or pondered something. The 6h runtime out of a regular NiMH blew the minds of the folks next to me on flights, with their highfalutin IBM laptops that folded after about 2h.
Then the industry "unlearned" this art until the Koreans built netbooks. Now I am back to 8h with the stock battery. I think HP came out with a similar model but it had a flash drive which I'd probably wear down with my SPICE sims.
[...]
It's not that black and white. I know engineers who are doing hardcore research. Once I was myself part of such an advanced research group but must honestly say that it ain't quite my turf. I don't have as much fun with math as you do. Then there are true scientists who are still able to see something almost all the way through to production.
Largely because of red tape. No education credential, and some union or the bureaucrats will likely shut you out. It's wrong. This is one reason why we have so few fresh engineers with serious transistor-level knowledge.
[...]
Einstein can't caution me much in that respect :-)
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I'd still ask them about these beliefs I wrote up there. See how they feel about it. Maybe you'll be very surprised.
Yes, sad. That's what corruption can do to states, churches and pretty much any entity with power. Nobody thinks about the long term consequences, they act out their hissy fits and then it's too late.
Yikes, maybe time to move away a bit from that fundamentalist group?
[...]
Now that would be an excellent point to discuss with your friends Linda and Dorothy. It is one of the most frequent question that "starter Christians" or non-believers have. I could begin a sermon here but that would be long and seriously OT.
That is one of many reasons why going to church is not optional for a true believer. This stuff is explained there in great detail. If they have a good pastor, that is.
If you don't believe that the master watched them very closely. It is my firm belief that the master did.
Ok, if you flat-out refuse to take any of this seriously I can't argue anymore.
This is why my real due diligence phase took several years and happened when I was an adult, not during confirmation classes. After that my wife and I became active in the church, out of true conviction. And yes, we listened to all sermons, still do. I don't think it's possible any other way.
All I need to know is read one headline: Prediction of the rapture. That was so sick, and has caused a lot of grief among people. Just sick. Jesus himself said he doesn't know when it comes and then there are humans who have the audacity to say _they_ know. I lost any and all respect for the guy.
I see it the same way. But I also believe that just self-study is often not a sufficient due diligence. We must broaden our horizon and seek to learn from others as well. Books alone do not cut it, one also needs scholars and be able to communicate with them instead of this being a one-way street.
I prefer to ask our pastor when I encounter a conflict.
Ok, my own experience is different but we can just leave it at that.
Good. In the case of our church it is Kenia, but mostly right here. Homeless people, for example.
I've met only very few people who did longer-term volunteer stints in poverty-stricken regions and were not Christians.
Jesus himself said "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, ...". So no, it is not at all an excuse, it is a clear command. As far as I am concverned that's what we shall then try to do. Of course this does require us to educate ourselves continually. Else there will be major mistakes with grave consequences, such as rapture predictions.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Perhaps not, but it still comes off as God being a bit of an SOB: Before eating from the tree of knowledge, Adam didn't understand good from evil, so God's admonition likely came off as no more meaningful than if He had told Adam, "don't eat the yellow snow!" It's like telling a four-year-old not to play in the street: They don't yet possess the knowledge to understand why playing in the street is bad, and if I see a four-year-old playing in the street, I'd say the fault lies far more with the parents than with the kid.
Blaming your misdeeds on another also sounds like typical four-year-old behavior. :-)
Just my opinion... :-)
Adam was an adult. He was presented with a challenge and a choice, both clearly understood by him. Same for Eve.
Nah, adults have that down to perfection. "But, your honor, several cars passed me and those guys were doing at least 95mph and I was just trying to go with the flow".
Ask a judge in family court about that :-)
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Physiologically he was an adult, but prior to eating the apple, I have a very hard time conceptualizing him as an adult mentally. Indeed, if I were going to argue Adam's case in court, I'd absolutely go for the "innocent by means of a mental deficiency" defense, and I think a jury would view such an argument favorably.
...but of course Adam was in God's court, not in that of man...
"Defending Your Life" is a moderately humorous take on this sort of idea --
Yes, but hopefully in their better moments they'll admit that it largely is reverting to their four-year-old selves when they engage in such behavior!
---Joel
The judge won't buy it, even a human one. Eve consciously repeated what God had commanded them: ... but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it ..."
And she did it anyhow after being cajoled by the serpent to do it. This is similar to someone talking a friend into smashing a car window and grabbing the stuff inside. The person has a choice to refuse or to commit the bad deed. With the consequences.
Haven't seen it. We are pretty low key WRT movie consumption.
Mostly it's giving in to a hectic life ("If I step on it I'll make my son's ballgame") or plain old greed.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
If the person doing the smashing is somewhat mentally deficient, they'll get a far lighter sentence than if you or I break the window. (Although, truth be told, God's sentence of our lives being finite here on earth, having to cover ourselves, etc., doesn't really suggest much "punishment" to me... :-) ) All children must test their parents'/God's limits before they can really begin to understand why those limits exist in the first place, you know?
But I'm really out of my league here anyway and probably shouldn't try to debate this from my largely uninformed knowledge of the subject -- that's the kind of thing that gets people in trouble, see, e.g., Sarah Palin re: Paul Revere! ;-)
---Joel
Could you two continue your religious thread under another Subject name... it's certainly no longer about hooking up transistors :-( ...Jim Thompson
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