Help my neighbour's kid with his school project...

He's making a model of a tidal generation plant. The crucial bit for which he asked me for help is this:

He's making a float that rises and makes electricity with one of those tiny PM motors. He tells me he's getting about 300mV (cool; a 14-year-old not only knows what a DMM is but how to use it) and he'd like to run an LED. I though he might be able to charge a capacitor and dump it through the led at the top of the float's travel. What I need to know is if there's a way to get enough voltage to get the LED to light.

Make it spin faster is not reallly an option - it's run through a lego gearbox now and he says it can't be geared up anymore. I have a few similar motors around, and something in my memory aboput cycle dynamos says that PM motors as generators have an output that depends at least in part on the load, but I don't know what happens when the load resistance goes up/down.

Is there a simple circuit that I could tell him how to build that would charge a cap to 2v or so? Should he be spinning and measuring the motors I have or is that a non-starter?

No this is not for tomorrow, he says he has a week and a half left; the thing is mostly built, shows output with the meter but something that lights up would get more points, he thinks.

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Reply to
HardySpicer

That stuff is a bit rich for a 14-year-old, even if he does know how to use a DMM. I scanned it - seems to be bent towards radio-frequency pulses. His motor maybe makes 100Hz (my guess). It it practical to use such a pumping circuit with such a low frequency?

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Reply to
Brendan Gillatt

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You have linear motion, make a linear generator i.e. a magnet that moves in and out of a coil of wire. Get one of those batteryless flashlights and salvage the parts.

-- Joe

Reply to
J.A. Legris

If the generator is AC, then the voltage can be boosted by a transformer, rectified, then stored on a cap. Remember though, ultimately this is a power issue, not a voltage issue.

I had a dumb ass marketing type try to write a chip specification. The power delivered to the load didn't change, but the input voltage was reduced. The marketing guy wanted the current to go down with the reduced input voltage. Yes, he had an engineering degree, but his claim to fame was his father was a friend of the CEO.

Reply to
miso

It's a DC motor, so what comes out when you turn it is (sort of) DC.

Yes I know that ultimately it's a power issue, but LED's won't work without a minimum voltage higher than what he's getting.

Reply to
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Take apart the PM motor. Unwind the windings (there are probably 3). Rewind with the smallest magnet wire you can get, and pack as many turns as possible.

Reassemble the motor.

If you can increase the turns count by (1.5V/300mV) about 4 or 5 to one, you can get the red LED to light.

Failing that, find a motor designed to run at a higher voltage.

Reply to
going in circles

Before going farther check that he actually has enough power to light an LED. Given the description I suspect he doesn't.

If it takes about 5mA at 2V to light an LED that's the equivalent of a little over 33ma at 300mV.

A simple test to see if he has the power would be to simply short a resistor across the motor. If the motor still generates 300mV with a

10Ohm resistor across it he may be close to having enough power, If it still generates 300mV with a 5 Ohm resistor he probably does. Then you can worry about boosting the voltage but I think that's a larger task then he has time for. Personally I suspect 100Ohm or even 1K may be enough to brake the motor nearly to a stop.

For a visual I suspect the best bet is to use a small high impedance dial type gauge. Or maybe just use the DMM to show the generated voltage.

Robert

Reply to
Robert Adsett

High-lumen LEDs only require a fraction of a milliamp at 1.8v to produce visible light.

A small uC can charge-pump a cap and flash the LED instead of trying to run it continuously.

Me, I'd use a meter. I have a 150uA meter in my rocket launcher, because I need to test continuity with the absolute minimum current (no accidental ignition) and meters can be gotten that are extremely sensitive.

Reply to
DJ Delorie

I'm not a motors and rotors guy, but I can tell you that 300mv is too low to run any boost circuit. It is hard enough to do signal cell boosts. If you can't get more voltage, change the motor. Maybe you can store the energy in a spring then dump it to a generator to get a higher voltage.

Reply to
miso

Do you get one polarity on the upstroke and another on the downstroke? (I'm envisioning something like a rack and pinion...)

Depending on the wave freq, with a few BMF caps you might be able to build a charge pump that could drive a LED.

Thanks, Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

No - it's not wave, it's tidal.

Max rise/fall is 3cm/minute.

Reply to
_

I don't know if he has the space ... maybe he could use more floats and motors in series & get higher voltage. A little blocking oscillator can do wonders at around .6 volts to light an LED dimly - a little more can light it quite bright.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

This doesn't make any sense. How exactly is he getting 300 mV from a 3 cm/minute movement? What kind of mechanism do you have now?

I'd assumed that for tides, you'd use a pond and a dam.

Thanks, Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

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A big float and a high gear ratio.

He says that damming resevoirs (and, apparently, turbines) is/are bad for marine life; his idea is a free-standing pole with a large float and the generating plant on the pole; the float has a drum around which a wire is wrapped, the end of the wire being attached to the top and bottom of the pole.

Reply to
_

I hadn't realized they had improved quite that far. I still suspect there may not be enough power.

Another add-on, rather than just go for the visual indication of voltage run a series of tests with different resistors. That would give a nice set if data to map out the fill curve and maybe even calculate the fill factor. Actually the power may be low enough to use a simple pot and get all the data points he wants.

Robert

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Reply to
Robert Adsett

There is, however, no sense attempting to boost the voltage until you know you have enough power you have to work with. That should be an easy thing to get a handle on. I would actually be more impressed by that sort of measurement than a flashing light. His teachers may very well fell differently though.

Robert

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Reply to
Robert Adsett

How are you going to power the uC, if you can't even power the LED?

Reply to
linnix

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How about having two floats, one on top of the other. When the tide rises, only the upper float moves because the lower one is held down by a latching mechanism. When the upper float gets near the top of its travel, the latch is released (by an appropriate linkage) and the lower float, which is now completely submerged, shoots up quickly. Both floats then sink back down as the tide recedes and the cycle repeats. Result: a fast-moving float that can easily spin the motor/ generator and produce a higher, albeit shorter, pulse of voltage.

-- Joe

Reply to
J.A. Legris

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