EnergyStar plugpacks

You are the one who should learn to read. I plainly stated and backed up with theory and measurements that the reason Rod observed such bad performance is because the transformer manufacturers have taken liberties with their small versions. (Rod measured merely these poor "standard" designs, without critically analyzing them. You took his word as gospel.)

First, they make them less efficient than their larger ones, and as we observed in threads past, this is rather grossly apparent from observing the low copper-filling factor on the bobbins. Second, to save money they avoided using very simple techniques available for small low-power transformers, such as more turns, to dramatically lower quiescent primary current.

The cost of making the changes I see necessary is not zero, but it's quite small, perhaps 20% at most. But consider, if a rule is passed mandating the changes, all the manufacturers will be in the same place, and can make the changes without suffering any disadvantage. (That's the very useful role that a government and a regulator can play that industry can't do, or has a hard time doing, unless a strong standards body gets involved, for example.)

It's my belief the regulators consulted first with several manufacturers to determine the feasibility before proceeding. Or perhaps they read the relevant threads here on s.e.d. :-)

WRONG.

"Joel Kolstad = F****ng Idiot "

Notice - my comment above is written in the present tense.

My comment above was clearly about R- core transformers.

LEARN to READ !!!!!!!!!

DO NOT SNIP OUT THE CONTEXT !!!

...... Phil

"Winfield"

Pseudo academic pommy jerk off.

...... Phil

For the benefit of us yanks, what does pommy mean?

Snipped to highlight a point....

I like the idea of SMPS which stop switching, and resume with output load etc. - many idling SMPS make very strong signals at RF to 50+ MHz.

For a small signal radio listener to survive many of these supplies must be turned off completely as they make terrible noise at HF and above.

Some make a broadband white noise and others a gurgling, swishing noise which wanders all over the spectrum - worst offenders here are DVB-T receivers and (especially) SAMSUNG colour televisions.

I turn all my SMPS and then I can hear those of neighbours...I hate the stinking things !

"xyzzy"

F****it .

... Phil

"Fun Tyme"

But I agree that SMPS are a major cause of EMI.

...... Phil

"Eeysore"

It don't say.

Nor is there proof of class 2 compliance.

Anyone can use the double square symbol, at whim.

....... Phil

I was confused by what I find on the web. Apparently "pommy" is an endearing term for Brits. But also I find:

which says that the term "f****it" is mainly used by British Wankers, and I didn't think you were a British Wanker. So, I thought you were using "pommy" in another sense, and I'd better ask you about it.

Except, that isn't likely to happen; you'll just end up with SMPS wall-warts instead of transformer/rectifier/regulator wall-warts.

British.

"Pom" is an Australian colloquial term for a Briton, so "pommy" is the adjective form.

Also: "whingeing pom". Typically a Briton who is visiting Australia or has recently moved there, and has trouble adjusting to the heat, the venomous wildlife, etc. Or just Britons generally, depending upon the speaker's perception of them.

Let's assume a billion of these transformers with a $.1 cost increase. That's $100m the consumers will have to spend.

But all those transformers will consume about one gigawatt less, that's the equivalent of a normal power plant.

So, essentially, you get 1GW of power for $100m. That's pretty good, plus this "virtual power plant" doesn't consume any primary energy nor has it emissions. So it really does make sense to improve the efficiency of small applicances from an economical standpoint alone. No pants peeing greenie weenie arguing required here.

The same argument could be made from the consumer's point of view: The new wall wart consumes 1W less, which (assumed it's on 24/7) will save about 1.7 EUR/year (in Germany). Such amounts of money are too small to make any appreciable difference to the consumer, so we can't rely on the market forces having any effect. Government intervention is the right thing to do here.

robert

Iron core transformers in external PSUs are about to * disappear * - you ASS.

The REAL cost increase to the public may well be horrendous.

The increased electrocution risk alone is TOTALLY unacceptable.

...... Phil

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:57:44 -0700) it happened Winfield Hill wrote in :

Winfield you are so rigth! It is very possible to make small transformers with < .5W loss if good iron quality is used, and sufficient turns.... We had some of those made locally already many years ago (30? ;-)), did not even get a bit warm. Iron quality is _very_ important (and sufficient iron) to get a low loss. There are several sorts of iron to choose from IIRC (my first job was in a transformer / power supply company). No problem. Actually a good idea, as most of these little buggers get way too hot.

Agreed. I think most of the damn wall warts we see around here are recycled ship hulls, not grain oriented silicon steel. Sloppy 2 X 2 stacking of the core doesn't exactly improve performance - or failing to insulate the through- lamination hardware, or inter winding electrostatic shielding.

I worked for a custom linear supply manufacturer. We'd turn out some transformers for clients - they were amazed that the same size transformer that they were buying in bulk from overseas could be replaced with something that ran so much cooler and had better regulation.

One of our clients (Indian dude) asked for, and got, the winding schedule (design) of a transformer we were making for his prototype controllers. When he needed a lot of them, he passed the design to a manufacturer in Indonesia and got back a truckload of junk that ran hot and wouldn't meet his spec..

I loved it - slick guy figured he'd pull a fast one on us and shot his foot in the process. He was committed to these little relay socket controllers - the heat of the transformers wouldn't dissipate enough to meet the environmental specs he was quoting. The styrene covers would melt.

Playing around with the number of turns like that means a bigger winding window to accommodate both primary and secondary, so the core will have to be exponentially larger, just that much more material to increase the cost. If you reduce the wire gauge, allowing higher than the established industry standard current density in the wire, then you trade off the low no-load quiescent power consumption for higher dissipation and less than optimum efficiency at rated load, this adds even more to the cost of ownership, and depending on the usage cycle profile may defeat the intended purpose of the new regulations and waste energy. Your ideas are in keeping with the simple-mindedness of the entire philosophy of proposing all encompassing rules and regulations, a historically massive failure and legacy of parasitic bureaucracy that should be abandoned.

Indeed.. this is the NUMBER ONE problem. I specified a better material for a thermocouple instrument design (where heat dissipation affects the accuracy of the cold-junction compensator) and the transformer surface temperature dropped from "noticably warm" to "is it on?" with exactly the same size and (IIRC) the same windings. If nobody forces them to they'll use the cheaper material, save 10 cents or whatever, and each unit will waste an extra 10 cents a month of electricity.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

I agree and like ac small transformers. However, contrary to Phil's repeated assertions, made without backup evidence, the new rules will not mean the end of our small transformers, but merely their evolution into acceptable quiet, cool citizens. They will be larger and cost a little bit more, but they'll still be cheaper than switchers. It's true that many folks are willing to pay more to get a miniature-sized switcher on the end of their power cord, but that's quite independent of the horrendous power consumption problem our small appliances create right now in drawing so much current when they're "off."

- My home draws 200 watts when everything is turned off - that's right 200 watts, costing me 315$ per year. Sheesh! Not to mention the extra oil it consumes in the process.

As for the noisy SMPS, they can also be quieted considerably, at a fairly modest cost, too, but that'll require more rules.