Drop-in replacement for fluorescent tube using string of LEDs.

I just bought a new 26" fluorescent tube for my old Maytag electric range. It costs $15 instead of the $3 you might pay for a standard-length 30" at Home Depot. Instead of tossing out the old tube, I plan to salvage the electrical connectors and buy a few dozen high-power LEDs and construct a permanent replacement.

It would be nice if I could make it "drop-in" compatable. In other words, I would prefer to leave the ballast in place as well as the starter circuit. This way, if someone were to put the proper model of tube in later on, it would not explode in a shower of poisonous sharp fragments. (Like my wife if I pass away).

The second choice would be to disconnect the ballast and starter circuits so that a proper tube would simply do nothing. I would need to do this while my wife is out of the house, because she gets nervous when she sees me with wire cutters and screwdriver after the light-dimmer fiasco.

In either case, the first thing to do is either use a pair of diodes to split the AC into two separate strings of LEDs in series, or to use a full-wave rectifier feeding a single string of LEDs in series. Which is preferable?

Will the current in a string of LEDs be enough to "fool" the starter circuit into sensing a lamp that has properly started? (When the old light stopped working, the light would repeatedly re-start every few seconds. I assume that the current was not enough to heat up the bimetal strip in the starter.)

I presume that I do not need to provide a load to simulate the action of the filament coils at each end of the tube, unless this would end up interfering with the manner that the starter circuit uses to sense the current through the mercury vapour. Is this likely? I would use only two pins from the *same* side of the tube. (One from each end of the tube, but directly opposite, *not* diagonally opposite.) Does it matter which pair I use? (Before or after the ballast, and how do I tell which side is before or after?)

My next question is if I can assume a uniform voltage drop across each (forward conducting) active LED. I do not have the exact specs because I have not yet gone shopping for LEDs, but to keep the math simple lets assume I'm supposed to limit the current to 100 mA. If the LED is 100 mW, does that mean I can assume a one-volt drop across the LED? If so, do I need to add another resistor to limit total current, or would 120 LEDs in series provide sufficient resistance to handle 120 volts? I see no point in wasting power in a current-limiting resistor.

And how many LEDs in series does it take to remove the need for a rectifier? After all, the LEDs are diodes. Is each one "good" to block a fixed amount of back-voltage? If so, does the voltage depend on the junction chemistry, or it it a rating specified for the particular model of LED?

Also, does anyone have an idea where I can find a plastic tube 25 mm diameter? I'll probably end up breaking the glass. I understand that the phosphors are quite toxic, not to mention the mercury vapour. This will surely be an "outside" job during the summer.

PS - One university-level electronics course, so I probably know enough to be dangerous.

Reply to
Mike Duffy
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The starter doesn't see illumination current only filament current.

Use a 4-input rectifier the starter switch will then be out-of-circuit. ie two bridge rectifiers one at each end of the tube haveing the AC pins connected to the tube pins and the + and - pins connected to + and - on the LED strip.

Use all four pins, as above.

It should be uniform to much better than 5%

I do not have the exact specs because I

the mains voltage can fluctuate over a larger rance than leds can tolerate without visible brightness differences, you need some sort of explicit current limit.

The same number! Any number will work if you have the same number each way, but use a rectifier, you'll save the money spend for a rectifier when buying LEDs as you'll need fewer.

Try the yellow pages under "plastic suppliers"

--
Neither the pheasant plucker, nor the pheasant plucker's son. 


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Reply to
Jasen Betts

These people KNOW plastics:

San Leandro HQ 510 357 3755

TAP Plastics (408) 292 8685

1212 The Alameda San Jose, CA 95125

TAP Plastics Inc (408) 265-6400

1008 Blossom Hill Rd # F San Jose, CA 95123

TAP Plastics Inc (650) 962-8430

312 Castro St Mtn View, CA 94041

formatting link

from memory, a ballast heats the filament while trying to create an arc through the gas, probably open circuit voltage into the 600V ranges. Then the arc fires and the voltage drops to whatever it wants, probably 12 to

20 V? and maybe 1 Amp through it. That means the ballast's function is a current limiter! just what you need to drive the LED's!

I agree that you would want to use both sides of the filament drive, not sure why, just seems like a good idea. Also, from memory the filaments are often center tapped to that weird supply. Not sure how to safely center tap your led load to both sides, except two separate strings. You could check phase of the filament drivers and then connect each string to its proper phase, but that seems a bit tricky to do with 600V flying around trying to strike that initial arc. Maybe 'short' out the arc with a 100W incandescent light bulb while measuring filament phases. I wouldn't trust the connection to be 'universal' though, just phased for YOUR tube's ballast.

Reply to
RobertMacy

I think only old, inductive, ballasts will work. The new electronic ones may create toast. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142   Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Parbly true. But, the ones I designed to drive that 15 inch illumination tube in a desktop OCR scanner, ran at low ??kHz and would not have minded LED strings attached to it. Just would have gone immediately into current limit mode.

Can't speak for our 'debt' partner's products though.

Doesn't the US debt burden exceed the US GDP? Isn't that the definition of bankrupt?

Reply to
RobertMacy

Can you divulge internals for those?

Yep. That's why I keep opining that a depression is in our future, followed by civil war when the freeloaders don't have a government to feed them and start stealing. That's when the guns will come in handy

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142   Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Thank you Jasen for your reply to my earlier post.

And thank you for yours as well, Robert. Considering how much live testing I need to do to determine:

1) If my ballast is the electronic or inductive type. 2) If my starter is the "new" or "old" type. 3) You many volts I need to withstand during startup. 4) How much current I need to draw after startup to fool the cut-out.

I'm starting to think that it is not worth the bother for how much money I might save over the lifetime of the stove. This is especially true when you consider the truly important tidbit from Robert about the biggest voltage I need to deal with is not 120, but several hundred. I am also considering the probability of miscalculating something and causing an electrical fire.

Perhaps I'll just stuff a Christmas tree string into a tube, and mount a little 120V outlet nearby. It look's like I have room, ans 120V wires are available inside for the clock (and upstream from the ballast).

Reply to
Mike Duffy

yep.

Basically a DC to AC converter using a resonant tuned circuit that when lightly loaded really 'pops' some voltage out there. Then when loaded [after the arc fires] gets drug down to 'operating' values. Load de-Q's and brings down the voltage and sucks the current. After that, think 'constant power' supply.

From memory, 45C material ferroxcube gapped pot core, maybe 1 inch diameter? Ran off the 24V raw supply.

I learned a LOT about fluorescent tubes, starting them, and that pesky mercury deposition that blackens a section if not careful.

Reply to
RobertMacy

you are welcome, interesting question. sounds like a fun project.

Didn't mean to scare you regarding the high voltage. It's only there *if* there is no 'arc'. Since your LED load is always there, you won't see the high voltage at all, at least in my design. If they have a 'switch' you might.

I like the idea of simply putting aside the ballast for others, and wire you're own in there, and if 120 bothers you drop it down to 24 and not much bad can happen.

Reply to
RobertMacy

No, not even close. When debt exceeds assets that's bankrupt.

when debt exceeds income that's a mortgage.

--
Neither the pheasant plucker, nor the pheasant plucker's son. 


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Reply to
Jasen Betts

"debt burden" not "debt" In otherwords, 'what must be paid' is beyond the range of the debtor. As a result, each year, the debtor gets further and further behind.

Forgive my ignorance in definition. Assets = 'unconverted money in a savings account' So, until THAT is gone, not bankrupt.

BUT!! not a healthy financial situation either.

Reply to
RobertMacy

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