Cranshaft Position Sensor

Den torsdag den 29. oktober 2015 kl. 16.25.10 UTC+1 skrev edward....@gmail. com:

van is running fine. Did some web search and it's a common problem. Most vehicles with this problem still works, but some with rough idling. Some report dead in the water (on highway), but perhaps with additional problems . I have to order a special tool for installation and the right time to fi x it. So, i have to drive it without the sensor for several weeks at least .

ok up a small 12V battery to keep the ECU running.

ained so it remember the last good data set? The CP Sensor seems to be opt ional for tuning only.

I don't see how keeping the ECU powered would do anything if the cranksenso r isn't working it has no idea where the engine cranks is

I imagine it falls back to using a cam sensor

-Lasse

l.com:

he van is running fine. Did some web search and it's a common problem. Mo st vehicles with this problem still works, but some with rough idling. Som e report dead in the water (on highway), but perhaps with additional proble ms. I have to order a special tool for installation and the right time to fix it. So, i have to drive it without the sensor for several weeks at lea st.

hook up a small 12V battery to keep the ECU running.

ntained so it remember the last good data set? The CP Sensor seems to be o ptional for tuning only.

sor

Perhaps it's using stored data for the phase difference. RPM data (from ca m sensor?) is still good and the engine is still running smooth. Some vehi cle got rough idle after clearing the Check Engine Light by unplugging the main battery. I think that's the wrong way to clear the CEL. I will try t o keep the power up all the time with a small battery. I don't want to acc identally power the starter with my finger down the #1 plug hole (searching for TDC).

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 10:50:39 AM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote:

ail.com:

the van is running fine. Did some web search and it's a common problem. Most vehicles with this problem still works, but some with rough idling. S ome report dead in the water (on highway), but perhaps with additional prob lems. I have to order a special tool for installation and the right time t o fix it. So, i have to drive it without the sensor for several weeks at l east.

d hook up a small 12V battery to keep the ECU running.

aintained so it remember the last good data set? The CP Sensor seems to be optional for tuning only.

ensor

cam sensor?) is still good and the engine is still running smooth. Some ve hicle got rough idle after clearing the Check Engine Light by unplugging th e main battery. I think that's the wrong way to clear the CEL. I will try to keep the power up all the time with a small battery. I don't want to a ccidentally power the starter with my finger down the #1 plug hole (searchi ng for TDC).

If someone can build a device to measure piston position from the plug hole , i would buy it. Otherwise, i need to hire someone to stick his finger do wn the hole. The device needs to have a readout or feedback couple of feet away, while i manually crank the engine.

Get a shop manual. Finding TDC via the spark-plug hole is a commonly used technique.

Google "find top dead center" and you may not even need to get a book.

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Den torsdag den 29. oktober 2015 kl. 18.50.39 UTC+1 skrev edward....@gmail. com:

ail.com:

the van is running fine. Did some web search and it's a common problem. Most vehicles with this problem still works, but some with rough idling. S ome report dead in the water (on highway), but perhaps with additional prob lems. I have to order a special tool for installation and the right time t o fix it. So, i have to drive it without the sensor for several weeks at l east.

d hook up a small 12V battery to keep the ECU running.

aintained so it remember the last good data set? The CP Sensor seems to be optional for tuning only.

ensor

cam sensor?) is still good and the engine is still running smooth. Some ve hicle got rough idle after clearing the Check Engine Light by unplugging th e main battery. I think that's the wrong way to clear the CEL. I will try to keep the power up all the time with a small battery. I don't want to a ccidentally power the starter with my finger down the #1 plug hole (searchi ng for TDC).

I'd expect the phasing between crank and cam is fixed and known from the factory

there's probably some marks to show tdc somewhere

-Lasse

They usually suggest two people. One crank the engine and one stick his finger in the plug hole. If i have something to measure it, i can do it by myself. Perhaps a spring loaded stick tied to a pot and feeding a meter.

turn the engine with a wrench

Might be possible after removing air-conditioner, intake and output manifest and everything else on top of the engine. Otherwise, it's hard to do it by one person. You have to reach them at very narrow angles.

it doubt be easy to hit the right spot with the starter either.

if it is a manual, put it in gear and turn a wheel?

-Lasse

Oh no, don't even when to engage the starter. Just a socket and bar to turn it from the driver side. A second person reach into the #1 plug from the passenger side.

No, it's auto, and transmission is not running.

ok, so it is just that you can't reach the plug hole at the same time.

you need of those gadgets that screw into a plug hole and has a depth stick you might be able to turn and check a bit at a time

btw. why do you need to find tdc?

-Lasse

Isn't there a timing mark on the crank pulley/balancer?

There are gauges to use in the plug hole, but most plugs these days are at a bit of a slant and the piston may not press straight enough on them so they won't jam.

I don't know they still have external timing marks. They were to use with timing lights which are long since obsolete. There may still be an external mark to show TDC on the harmonic balancer. To install a timing belt or chain there are marks on the two pulleys which must be lined up but I don't know that gives you TDC.

--

Rick

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 11:25:10 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote:

van is running fine. Did some web search and it's a common problem. Most vehicles with this problem still works, but some with rough idling. Some report dead in the water (on highway), but perhaps with additional problems . I have to order a special tool for installation and the right time to fi x it. So, i have to drive it without the sensor for several weeks at least .

ok up a small 12V battery to keep the ECU running.

ained so it remember the last good data set? The CP Sensor seems to be opt ional for tuning only.

The obd readers are cheap and they all should have the capability to clear the fault light, no battery disconnect required. I had a failure like this recently, no problem with smooth running, the engine became progressively h arder to start-on occasion-most times it fired right up, every once in a wh ile there would be a major lurch for a second or so at highway speed or 250

0 RPM. The sensor is not like a timing belt. If an expensive specialty tool is required, take it to a good shop. Let them know the code and the sympto ms so they can have the sensor ready in stock. It will only be an hour of l abor and 30% markup on the sensor, give them the work and spread the wealth , cheapskate.

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stick his finger in the plug hole. If i have something to measure it, i ca n do it by myself. Perhaps a spring loaded stick tied to a pot and feeding a meter.

manifest and everything else on top of the engine. Otherwise, it's hard t o do it by one person. You have to reach them at very narrow angles.

turn it from the driver side. A second person reach into the #1 plug from the passenger side.

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The new sensor must be aligned with a special tool with piston #1 at TDC. No other timing mark is available. This is not supposed to be a regularly serviceable part on the 3.0L Ford engine, but many of the magnets detached from the top cap and killing the sensor. They could have make a better par t for 2 cents more, saving $500 of estimated repairs. I guess they need to keep the dealer's mechanic fully employed.

When i get the new sensor, i might add additional epoxy to the magnet. Hop efully, it will last a few more years.

In theory, the crankshaft position sensor should be fixed to the cam sensor . I guess there are enough drift in time to require this additional sensor . So, as long as the ECU is power up and remembering the last position. T he engine should work fine.

But the vehicle won't pass emission with the CEL, so it needs to be fixed.

Den fredag den 30. oktober 2015 kl. 01.19.55 UTC+1 skrev M Philbrook:

ail.com:

the van is running fine. Did some web search and it's a common problem. Most vehicles with this problem still works, but some with rough idling. S ome report dead in the water (on highway), but perhaps with additional prob lems. I have to order a special tool for installation and the right time t o fix it. So, i have to drive it without the sensor for several weeks at l east.

d hook up a small 12V battery to keep the ECU running.

aintained so it remember the last good data set? The CP Sensor seems to be optional for tuning only.

ensor

interference doesn't matter, the cam sensor is for phasing which may or may not matter depending on the engine and configuration

e.g. a inline 4 with wasted spark doesn't need phasing for the ignition and if it is single point injection phasing isn't need for that either

I believe some engine that need phasing can also do the phasing by watching crank acceleation/decceleration from the compression

in any case estimating the cranks angle from a single pulse per revolution cam sensor isn't going to be near as good as the 36-1, 60-2 teeth cranks se nsor

-Lasse

You should know it wouldn't run at all if there was no sensor feed back, come on now. Those days are gone.

Most cars that keep running with a failed sensor have two sensors, not just one.

They have both a cam shaft and crank shaft sensor. Most of then will keep running from the cam shaft sensor if crank shaft fails to report, which is a common problem in many since these sensors are mounted down on the low side where posible road junk, environmental splash ups etc..

Some cars will go into limp mode, meaning electronic timing for cam shaft firing will drop back to insure it's operating in a safe region, depending on how you drive, it may show it maynot but they both are needed for proper timing.

Now if you lose your cam sensor (not %100 here), I do think that interference engines will not operate and non-interference may go into limp mode.

Eitherway, it really should be fixed because for some they also report belt slop if you have one.

Jamie

Den fredag den 30. oktober 2015 kl. 03.29.35 UTC+1 skrev M Philbrook:

picture of ford cam sensor and that it usually is, in normal operation it's just there to tell 0-360 and 360-720 apart, the angle comes from the cranks sensor with probably 36-1 teeth

-Lasse

Single pulse? Where did you get that notion?

Jamie