Controlling a stupid robotic vacuum cleaner

So I have this LG homebot3, and it is stupid. You cannot even program an area where it should not go. Been thinking, the plus side is that it has an IR remote control. I can control it: turn left or right, forward, backward, stop.

I did manage to copy the IR signals into my other learning remote, and also wrote a program to learn these into files on the PC and play those back.

formatting link
So I can control its motion from the PC.

And then write some more intelligent software on the PC, but I need feedback of where it is.. So I was thinking maybe a red and green LED (left side and right side), and a webcam on the ceiling, if I lose it switch it to its normal dumb mode until it (hopefully) is in view again. Time of flight radio signals would work for position, but does not tell you which way it is pointing, I think I can easily manage the red green light thing from a slow webcam... as background program on teh server.. and then learn it a path to follow..

Any better ideas?

Add mag stripe sensor for keep out are... Add tray for drinks..

Reply to
Jan Panteltje
Loading thread data ...

Mount the camera ON the robot and use that free program for spatial recognizion? I've got some people giving positive feedback on applying that to autonomous robots.

Have a 'teach mode' where you show it NOT to go?

Add a 'dog collar' do not leave the yard! type thingy?

Infrared LED boundaries/barriers, 'fence lines' to NOT cross?

How much was that VC? Does it function well? What dBA weighted sound level? 50? 60? or gack 70+?

Reply to
RobertMacy

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Mar 2014 07:42:22 -0700) it happened RobertMacy wrote in :

What program was that?

Yes, that is planned, would simply steer it once, and it should learn that route.

:-) I put some object in front of my plant in a glass pot, it did not see the glass... threw over the plant, water out, a mess.

Some of those things have that, some use metal stripes you can put on the floor, this one has nothing like that. It seems to have a camera watching the ceiling for room layout. There are acoustic sensors too and IR too.

formatting link

Was about 500 Euro, it is not very loud, if in the next room you can hardly hear it, but it has a female voice and can scream if it gets stuck (about every time).

It also stops at low hanging curtains, so the it does not clean all the way to the wall.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Can't find it! I originally found it related to Robotic Vision, free open source software, for a friend of mine's robotic company. He's already implemented it and said works great. [note have records of EVERYTHING, but what I need!]

Will ask him and get back.

I think we both agree, adding strips to the floor, or crap to the room, ain't going to happen!

hmmm, ceiling camera ...NSA connection? acoustic, infrared? great idea for input there!

You can point a cmaera at the room, watch the VC move about, then provide 'controls'/corrections! Great enhancement!

ouch! but Korean made, should have some quality.

Harbor Frieght used to sell a Sound Meter for $14.95 which was easy to use and just as repeatable as the $1500 model we used in the lab, just not as calibrated, but so what? Even had an output for hard recording over time!

Sadly Electrolux engineers once told me they produced a quieter model, which did NOT sell. Why? People equate NOISE with POWER and customers perceived the vacuum as less powerful, because it was quieter! So, they had to go back to making them noisy. The vacuum cleaners, not the customers.

ARRGGG!!! Great, now my wife has one more thing to come running in to ask who that woman is that I'm talking to! Euphemism there.

No curtains, no problems.

Got some travertine floors 30 by 100 ft several places. that I'd like to maintain a bit better, automatically.

Reply to
RobertMacy

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Mar 2014 09:22:55 -0700) it happened RobertMacy wrote in :

Cool.

I just found something else that is wrong, it you steer it manually forward with the remote, it will stop [at most] obstacles. BUT if you steer it backward, then there are no sensors! BANG! went right up against the wall!

I get the impression that this is designed by some guy sitting at the keyboard without doing any real testing.

mm no WiFi AFAIK, it could run Linux though, no reply to my email yet from

formatting link
model is not listed, asked them... Looks like I will have to rip out the board and have a look. If it is Linux and they release no usable source the case goes directly to the FSF.

Yes, my LG bluray burner is OK, even does M-DISCs.

It does other rooms sort of OK (except for the curtain issue), it gets in a fight with cables, pulled the cables out of the speakers. High pole carpet is no go either (had to unwind a string from the roller).

But we are in the age of self-driving cars. this should or could be done better I think. Even a ten year old can write better soft than this thing seems to run.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje
[snip]

open

Are you referring to OpenCV?

Reply to
Randy Day

On 15/03/14 15.27, Jan Panteltje wrote:

Hello Jan

Your attitude is why you judgement is that the robotic vacuum cleaner is stupid. You are technically minded and therefore your judgement by definition is that it is stupid.

For people that is not technically minded the robotic cleaner is ok.

-

Compared to a human, all robots are stupid! Why? Because people are normally better planners and have better vision and planning, and mostly learn from previous experiences. Only on some narrow fields can robots be better.

The electric power needed for a robot vision with recognition is high because it needs a very fast processor - best a big FPGA for low level vision.

Our brains only use 20W when awake and have smart adaptive intelligent vision and processing of other senses. The rest of our body use about

40W when resting - and up to 1000W for a highly active athlete.

-

If you want a programmable robotic cleaner, you have to make it yourself

- the normal Roomba strategy is the shift between spiralling outwards - and follow floor limits - somewhere in the links below, I read about it.

Please use big ARM processors. (use

formatting link
to program them) (YAGARTO - Yet another GNU ARM toolchain:
formatting link
formatting link
) Picmicros are a mess with big C/Python/Forth programs. You might use the Picmicros for sensor and motor subsystems that communicate with the ARM processor. ARM boards with wifi, USB, 3D accelerometers, gyros and so on exists:

iRobot Roomba Open Interface:

formatting link
Quote: "... To upgrade a Roomba manufactured before October 24, 2005, you will need to purchase the OSMO //Hacker tool...."

formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link

Ohio State University. (2009, July 31). Want Responsible Robotics? Start With Responsible Humans. ScienceDaily:

formatting link

A lawnmower bot is almost the same as a robotic vacuum cleaner, it just has another tool. But a lawnmower bot is potentially more dangerous because of the sharp cutting rotor:

Here are a couple DIY lawnmower bots:

formatting link
Roboduino With Atmega328 (Freeduino)
formatting link
formatting link
Roboduino KIT - Servo Ready Freeduino (Arduino Compatible)
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
Vol. 22: Lawnbot400
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
DIY Robot Lawn Mower
formatting link
formatting link
Robocut
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link
formatting link

  • formatting link
    formatting link
    formatting link

-

Inspiration for vision algorithms and feeding robotic cleaner with position data. Remember that vision demands lots of computing power.

After seeing these videos and reading about, what vision driven robots demands, you will settle with "stupid" robotic cleaners with a few floor coverage strategies :-)

Aggressive Quadrotor Part II

formatting link
Aggressive Maneuvers for Autonomous Quadrotor Flight
formatting link
formatting link
Very Aggressive Quadrotor (Parody)
formatting link

UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA GRASP LAB

formatting link
Quote: "... Each quadrotor is equipped with an IMU (Inertial Measurement Unit) sensor to measure its angular velocity, and affixed with four passive optical markers that are tracked by 20 Vicon MX T40 cameras set up in a 5 X 5 X

5 meter volume. The Vicon motion capture system feeds position in space of a quadrotor into the lab?s computer-driven navigation system ..."

GRASP lab demonstrates quadrotors (w/ Video):

formatting link
Cooperative Grasping and Transport using Quadrotors:
formatting link
Cooperative Grasping and Transport using Multiple Quadrotors:
formatting link

Construction with Quadrotor Teams

formatting link

Flying robots, the builders of tomorrow:

formatting link

Quadrotor Autonomous Flight and Obstacle Avoidance with Kinect Sensor:

formatting link

-

Robots can be dangerous - especially when developing them:

May 31st, 2007, Robot lawnmower kills Danish man:

formatting link

10.18.07, Robot Cannon Kills 9, Wounds 14:
formatting link
Quote: "... The South African National Defence Force "is probing whether a software glitch led to an antiaircraft cannon malfunction that killed nine soldiers and seriously injured 14 others during a shooting exercise on Friday." ..."

/Glenn

Reply to
Glenn

Cats are smart:

ROOMBA driver Cat uses iRobot Roomba 560 Robotic Vacuum Cleaner. HelensPets.com:

formatting link

/Glenn

Reply to
Glenn

Sources about AI/our vision - we were promised smart AI long ago - we still wait:

Baylor College of Medicine (2011, May 9). Brain performs near optimal visual search. ScienceDaily:

formatting link
Quote: "... This ability to recognize target objects surrounded by distracters is one of the remarkable functions of our nervous system. ... "Target detection involves integrating information from multiple locations," said Ma. "Many objects might look like the target for which you are searching. It is a cognitive judgment as well as a visual one." ... "The visual system is automatically and subconsciously doing complex tasks," said Ma. "People see objects and how they relate to one another. We don't just see with our eyes. We see with our brains. Our eyes are the camera, but the process of interpreting the image in our brains is seeing." ..."

Expert system:

formatting link
Quote: "... Disadvantages

  • The Garbage In, Garbage Out (GIGO) phenomenon: A system that uses expert-system technology provides no guarantee about the quality of the rules on which it operates. All self-designated "experts" are not necessarily so, and one notable challenge in expert system design is in getting a system to recognize the limits to its knowledge.
  • Expert systems are notoriously narrow in their domain of knowledge ? as an amusing example, a researcher used the "skin disease" expert system to diagnose his rustbucket car as likely to have developed measles ? and the systems are thus prone to making errors that humans would easily spot. ...
  • An expert system or rule-based approach is not optimal for all problems, and considerable knowledge is required so as to not misapply the systems. ...
  • Ease of rule creation and rule modification can be double-edged. A system can be sabotaged by a non-knowledgeable user who can easily add worthless rules or rules that conflict with existing ones ..."

Horizon-effect:

formatting link
Quote: "... When evaluating a large game tree using techniques such as minimax or alpha-beta pruning, search depth is limited for feasibility reasons. However, evaluating a partial tree may give a misleading result. When a significant change exists just over the 'horizon' of the search depth, the computational device falls victim to the horizon effect. ..."

Mar. 7, 2008 Insect's Sensory Data Tells A New Story About Neural Networks:

formatting link
Quote: "... "In this system, the motion-sensitive neurons emit spikes very often and very precisely," said Nemenman. "Historically, people have observed a lot more random spike intervals. This research is a departure from the traditional understanding in that we see that the precision of spike timing that carries information about the fly's rotation is a factor of ten higher than even the most daring previous estimates." ... "This may be one of the main reasons why artificial neural networks do not perform anywhere comparable to a mammalian visual brain," said Nemenman ..."

University of Rochester Medical Center (2009, March 26). What Separates Humans From Mice? Bigger, Faster Astrocytes In Brain. ScienceDaily:

formatting link
Quote: "... There aren't many differences known between the rodent brain and the human brain, but we are finding striking differences in the astrocytes. ... "We have not really been able to understand why the human brain is so much more capable than that of any other animal," said neuroscientist Maiken Nedergaard, M.D., D.M.Sc., who led the study. "Some people have thought that it's simply that a bigger brain is a better brain, but an elephant's brain is bigger than a person's, for example, but it's not nearly as powerful. So that's not the answer. ... Rather than realizing their tools were incomplete, scientists assumed that astrocytes were silent. ... The brain's two signaling systems ? one composed of neurons, and one of astrocytes ? complement each other, Nedergaard said. Neurons send signals extremely quickly over long distances ? the hand touches a hot stove, for instance, and the brain detects the danger and moves the hand away, instantly. Astrocytes, in contrast, send slower signals whose function is still being worked out by scientists. ... And then you have a much slower network composed of astrocytes whose signals are 10,000 times slower but which might be able to process the information in a more sophisticated manner and retrieve memories. ..."

Salk Institute (2009, September 28). Attention Makes Sensory Signals Stand Out Amidst Background Noise In Brain. ScienceDaily:

formatting link
Quote: "... "Attention is an essential part of perception," says Reynolds. ..."

University Of California - Los Angeles (2004, December 14). UCLA Neuroscientist Gains Insights Into Human Brain From Study Of Marine Snail. ScienceDaily:

formatting link
Quote: "... "Our work implies that the brain mechanisms for forming these kinds of associations might be extremely similar in snails and higher organisms. People may think invertebrates are not very sophisticated, but we don't appreciate just how complicated their nervous systems are, and how complex their behaviors are. We don't fully understand even very simple kinds of learning in these animals."..."

Dec. 22, 2007 Neuronal Circuits Able To Rewire On The Fly To Sharpen Senses:

formatting link
Quote: "... "If you think of the brain like a computer, then the connections between neurons are like the software that the brain is running. Our work shows that this biological software is changed rapidly as a function of the kind of input that the system receives," said Nathan Urban, associate professor of biological sciences at Carnegie Mellon. ..."

2004-06-16, Sciencedaily: Gray Matters: New Clues Into How Neurons Process Information:
formatting link
Quote: "... "It's amazing that after a hundred years of modern neuroscience research, we still don't know the basic information processing functions of a neuron," said Bartlett Mel. ... "For lack of a better idea, it has always been thought that a brain cell sums up its excitatory inputs linearly, meaning that the excitation caused by two inputs A and B activated together equals the sum of excitations caused by A and B presented separately."

"We show that the cell significantly violates that rule," Mel said.

The team found that the summation of information within an individual neuron depends on where the inputs occur, relative to each other, on the surface of the cell. ... While the results are promising, the team is certain this is not the final word on the pyramidal neuron. ... "Undoubtedly, this is still too simple a model," Mel said. "But the two-layer model is a better description, it seems, than to assume that the neuron is simply combining everything linearly from everywhere. That's clearly not what these data show." ... Mel emphasizes that the "arithmetic" rules he and his colleagues found in pyramidal neurons may not apply to all neurons in the brain.

"There are other neurons that have different shapes, inputs, morphologies and ion channels," he said. "There might be a dozen different answers to the question, depending on what neuron you're looking at." ... [ Remark: This is a tentative model - we do not know if the brain behaves exactly as a computer!: ] "We tend to view the brain as a computer," he said. "If we want to figure out how this computer works, we must first know how its separate parts function." ..."

Dec. 27, 2005 MIT Researcher Finds Neuron Growth In Adult Brain:

formatting link
Quote: "... Despite the prevailing belief that adult brain cells don't grow, a researcher at MIT's Picower Institute for Learning and Memory reports in the Dec. 27 issue of Public Library of Science (PLoS) Biology that structural remodeling of neurons does in fact occur in mature brains. ..."

Oct. 12, 2004 Under The Surface, The Brain Seethes With Undiscovered Activity:

formatting link
Quote: "... There's an old myth that we only use 10 percent of our brains, but researchers at the University of Rochester have found in reality that roughly 80 percent of our cognitive power may be cranking away on tasks completely unknown to us. ... Placing the ferrets [
formatting link
] in a darkened room revealed that older ferrets' brains were still humming along at 80 percent as if they were processing visual information. Since this activity was absent in the youngsters, Weliky and his colleagues were left to wonder: What is the visual cortex so busy processing when there's no image to process? ... Weliky found two surprises. First, while the neurons of adult ferrets statistically seemed to respond similarly to the statistics of the film itself, younger ferrets had almost no relationship. This suggests that though the young ferrets are taking in and processing visual stimuli, they're not processing the stimuli in a way that reflects reality. ... Accepting all the neural traffic of a conscious brain as part of the equation let Weliky get a better idea of the actual processing going on. As it turned out, one of his control tests yielded insight into neural activity no one expected. ... This suggests that with your eyes closed, your visual processing is already running at 80 percent, and that opening your eyes only adds the last 20 percent. The big question here is what is the brain doing when it's idling, because it's obviously doing something important." ..."

Mar. 8, 2008 Can Moths Or Butterflies Remember What They Learned As Caterpillars?:

formatting link
Quote: "... However, scientists at Georgetown University recently discovered that a moth can indeed remember what it learned as a caterpillar. ..."

Do the gene expression orchestre influence the neurons "behavior/calculation"? And therefore us?:

Dec. 12, 2007 When She's Turned On, Some Of Her Genes Turn Off, Fish Study Shows:

formatting link
Quote: "... When a female is attracted to a male, entire suites of genes in her brain turn on and off, show biologists from The University of Texas at Austin studying swordtail fish. ... This is one of few studies to link changes in the expression of genes with changes in an individual's behavior in different social situations ... "What we have not appreciated until now is how dynamic the genome is," said Hofmann. "It is constantly changing and even in a very short period of time, 10 percent of the protein-coding genome can change its activity. We now have a genomic view of these dynamic processes within a social context." ..."

Apr. 23, 2008 Nurture Over Nature: Certain Genes Are Turned On Or Off By Geography And Lifestyle, Study Suggests:

formatting link
Quote: "... Although Idaghdour initially hypothesized that environmental factors would play a role in gene expression, he didn't expect such large differences. About 30 percent of genes were differentially expressed between urban dwellers and mountain agrarians. ..."

formatting link

What Computers Can't Do:

formatting link
Quote: "... [My personel opinion - it should also be encompas what "guides" us (soul/consciousness?) or if everything or a part are consciousness choices?: ] Dreyfus argued that human intelligence and expertise depend primarily on unconscious instincts rather than conscious symbolic manipulation, and that these unconscious skills could never be captured in formal rules. ... When Dreyfus' ideas were first introduced in the middle 60's, they were met with ridicule and outright hostility.[2][3] But by the 1980s, many of his perspectives were rediscovered by researchers working in robotics and the new field of connectionism ... [A] great misunderstanding accounts for public confusion about thinking machines, a misunderstanding perpetrated by the unrealistic claims researchers in AI have been making, claims that thinking machines are already here, or at any rate, just around the corner.[6] ... Dreyfus argued that human problem solving and expertise depend on our background sense of the context, of what is important and interesting given the situation, [] rather than on the process of searching through combinations of possibilities to find what we need. [] Dreyfus would describe it in 1986 as the difference between "knowing-that" and "knowing-how", based on Heidegger's distinction of present-at-hand and ready-to-hand.[12] ... Our sense of the situation is based, Dreyfus argues, on our goals, our bodies and our culture?all of our unconscious intuitions, attitudes and knowledge about the world. This ?context? or "background" (related to Heidegger's Dasein) is a form of knowledge that is not stored in our brains symbolically, but intuitively in some way. It affects what we notice and what we don't notice, what we expect and what possibilities we don't consider: we discriminate between what is essential and inessential. The things that are inessential are relegated to our "fringe consciousness" (borrowing a phrase from William James): the millions of things we're aware of, but we're not really thinking about right now.

Dreyfus claimed that he could see no way that AI programs, as they were implemented in the 70s and 80s, could capture this background or do the kind of fast problem solving that it allows. He argued that our unconscious knowledge could never be captured symbolically. If AI could not find a way to address these issues, then it was doomed to failure, an exercise in "tree climbing with one's eyes on the moon."[13] ... Dreyfus, who taught at MIT, remembers that his colleagues working in AI "dared not be seen having lunch with me."[22] ... Failed predictions. As Dreyfus had foreseen, the grandiose predictions of early AI researchers failed to come true. ... Today researchers are far more reluctant to make the kind of predictions that were made in the early days. (Although some futurists, such as Ray Kurzweil, are still given to the same kind of optimism.) ... The psychological assumption and unconscious skills. Many AI researchers have come to agree that human reasoning does not consist primarily of high-level symbol manipulation. ... McCorduck asks "If Dreyfus is so wrong-headed, why haven't the artificial intelligence people made more effort to contradict him?"[27] ... Daniel Crevier writes that "time has proven the accuracy and perceptiveness of some of Dreyfus's comments. ..."

-

Crows using traffic to crack walnut:

formatting link

/Glenn

Reply to
Glenn

The only way humans can make truly smart entities, are when a man and a woman make children.

:-)

/Glenn

Reply to
Glenn

The only way humans can make truly smart entities, are when a man and a woman make and raise children.

:-)

/Glenn

Reply to
Glenn

I take it that you've never watched Bill Cosby.

Reply to
krw

You've never watched an Obama speech? *Plenty* of "I"s in those.

Reply to
krw

You first need "I" before you can get "A"

There seems to be a shortage of "I" these days..

Jamie

Reply to
Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.

I try not, thank you. ;)

Jamie.

Reply to
Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Mar 2014 20:57:15 +0100) it happened Glenn wrote in :

Well judging by some not technical minded user review I found some just send it back... Anyways, thank you for all the links, I already build small robotic cars in my youth, then with relays and photocell.

Many years ago there was in some German magazine a simple example of a professor who used some simple (electronic) neurons (just a few of those) to give very interesting behavior to such a simple car, like evasion, attraction (to a light), and I was surprised how simple and effective that was, That would already be better than this thing. he also had several of those 'animals' running freely in a group.

He had a software simulation too IIR, at least I tried it in simulation and it worked,. Not sure that magazine still exists.

So what I am trying to say it that using some of the human imagination to design such a thing it does not have to be GHz processors etc, just a few lines of code.... In those days of that article computers were at 386 level at most, IIRC I had a 486DX2. It is usually total lack of understanding of hardware where people write in bloat like java or C+ or whatever where the GHz comes in, industry loves to sell you a XGHz to speed up your email.

These days, and I sort of decided to open the thing up, see whats in there, lemme guess, a Linux board with an USB cam...? See if I am right grab the motor drive signals, and put in a Raspberry Pi? LOL Then I can program it is C and be done with it. But it could run MS windows too? that would explain a few things,,,,, And I want a volume control...

Its something for NASA, like a mars rover, they must by now have great software for autonomous vehicles... If I was Joe Average and not technical I would have send it straight back too. But here is a challenge, I will study your links, will take some time, and report on what I find inside this thing if I can open it without a saw, f*ck the guarantee, here is an adventure!

Putting in a Raspberry would allow WiFi, the IR remote signals seem to be the same as a my USB sat receiver uses, it almost screwed a planned recording...

[1] If google sold an autonomous car that drove into buildings, hit pedestrians, stopped in the middle of the road for no reason at all other then a piece of paper (emergency breaks, airbag), and could not park (this thing cannot even really find its charging stations unless it is in a large free area nearby), news would be full of it. Nobody would buy it, and it would not be allowed on the road. But destruction of ones room infrastructure (plants, cables, carpet) is OK? Its a BAD job! The way this probably works is: sales tells some interns "we need a robotic vacuum cleaner too", and there you go.
Reply to
Jan Panteltje

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Mar 2014 19:59:39 -0400) it happened snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote in :

I am just glad they did not use 0bama's voice for alerts. 'Russia attacks Russia attacks'. The complete moron is just like the previous demonrats lead by Soros who want war in Europe and like kennedy in the Cuba crisis will try a standoff with Russia, all to do some speculation and sell more weapons. Demonrats are dangerous idiots.

0bama will start a war so he can put people at work for free 'to save the fatherland' to fix that infrastructure. In a war situation people can be grabbed and put to work and even be motivated to do it out of free will. Of course some nukes could fly unexpected US way when rebels (ultra right) gets hold of the Russian silos, and then what do you have, a test for my geiger counter,,, LOL :-)
Reply to
Jan Panteltje

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:36:19 +0100) it happened Glenn wrote in :

So it not 'making lov;', but now 'making intelligence'? :-) Evolution, yes.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Mar 2014 21:55:31 +0100) it happened Glenn wrote in :

I like it! Its the tail that does the cleaning!

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

On 16/03/14 07.31, Jan Panteltje wrote: ...

...

Hello Jan

Have you noticed that the iron-curtain fell in 1991?

formatting link

Europeans, russians, ukrainans, poles,... have been visiting back and forth through the now almost non-existing iron curtain.

Please change your mind set - the cold war is mostly over.

dreams comes true like travelling to the moon, u-boats (Jules Verne), flying machines:

formatting link
Quote: "...After their Kitty Hawk success, The Wrights flew their machine in open fields next to a busy rail line in Dayton Ohio for almost an entire year. American authorities refused to come to the demos, and Scientific American Magazine published stories about "The Lying Brothers." Even the local Dayton newspapers never sent a reporter (but they did complain about all the letters they were receiving from local "crazies" who reported the many flights.) Finally the Wrights packed up and moved to Europe, where they caused an overnight sensation and sold aircraft contracts to France, Germany, Britain, etc..."

formatting link
Quote: "...N. Tesla (brushless AC motor) An AC motor which lacks brushes was thought by physicists to be impossible: an instance of a Perpetual Motion Machine..."

-

You do not get better understanding between many sides, by demonizing some parties. Demonizing some parties might be the road to conflict. The demonization will do, that the mind is set to throw away your own openess towards the other party. The other party then do not stand a understanding/peacefull chance - that party then see no other way than to be non-understanding/even hostile.

After demonization - bilateral understanding and peace might go down the drain.

Of cause - the above is hugely simplified - and it needs to reach government (or some influential fraction) level to be problematic.

Of cause the individual have political opinions - and should have, it ought to be/is part of our human rights - but we will also be judged by other by our expressed opinions, of cause in the current (social and historically) context.

I know that many of people in this news group, express harsh political opinions... so you are by no means alone...

/Glenn

Reply to
Glenn

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.