Cable TV Internet Service Problem -- Solved

Recently, I have been bedeviled by unstable Internet service from COMCAST (Xfinity) in the Boston area. The following story is not limited to COMCAST, and it could have been any Cable-TV Internet Service Provider.

Starting in late July 2021 and ending in early August 2021, for about one month total, my Internet service became very unstable. (Cable TV service was unaffected, so it was not that the physical cable path was interrupted.) Internet service had been rock solid since about 2016, when I purchased and installed the current cable modem, an ARRIS SB6183. My service tier is 200 Mbit/sec download, which is well within the capabilities of the SB6183, 686 Mbits/sec.

The main external symptoms were that browser access would randomly slow and hang, sometimes recovering, something not. Likewise email (POP account). Rebooting the modem (by cycling power) often but not always restored Internet service. As the month progressed, things got progressively worse, although it was always relapsing-remitting - it should spend all night trying to connect, failing, trying again, and so on.

Called COMCAST tech support, which forced me to deal with a robot lady that could only follow a script, the main point of which was to get me to power-cycle the modem. This power cycle often did work, probably because she was probably also sending a modem reset signal at the same time, but she never made that clear. (The robot lady here is in fact a machine, not just an unimaginative human, a droid.)

Got a human later, after calling back and answering that the problem was not fixed. The human came to the conclusion that my cable modem was too old and likely broken, and insisted that I call ARRIS and have them diagnose the modem, and only if ARRIS declared that the modem was not broken would COMCAST do anything like send a truck without charging an arm and a leg.

Called ARRIS. Cost US $50 (out of warrantee). Got a real human, in Chennai, India, who did seem expert in the modem internals, with perfect English and a very good telephone line, and was very patient.

COMCAST had claimed that ARRIS could do technical (ie, electrical) tests remotely, but this turned out not to be true. Anyway, I had collected lots of status data from the modem, which we discussed, and he concluded that the modem was not broken and did not need to be replaced

Now one mystery had always nagged me: While the Internet was up, the modem would report received signal powers (over 16 parallel RX channels) of +5 dBmV (decibels over one millivolt in a 75-ohm system), and a SNR of about 40 dB, and yet errors (both corrected and uncorrected) kept accumulating.

When the link was down, the received signal level would drop by 20 dB to -15 dBmV (which is in the DOCSIS 3.0 Spec Range) , and the SNR would still be 35 dB (also in spec range).

How does that work? With 35 to 40 dB SNR, there should be no errors. Neither COMCAST nor ARRIS were able to interpret that oddity.

Called COMCAST back. Went through the robot lady yet again, but on the third call, got another real human.

He really had no idea what went on inside modems et al, and insisted that if the associated firewall/router was not also rebooted when the modem was reset or rebooted, the ensuing chaos would cause the modem to be unable to measure incoming RF power (at around 500 MHz) correctly on a coax, the claim being that both Ethernet and Cable TV were both "electrical", so they could heavily affect one another Hmm. I'll have to think about that. For a very long time.

He was also of the opinion that Ethernet wires wear out and need periodic replacement. I declined to disassemble the house to get at the CAT5e cable that runs from basement (at the modem) to the 2nd floor (where the WiFi base station lives).

He worried greatly about cables and connectors in general, saying that they were very often the cause of such problems as I was seeing. After one hour discussing the issue, while his theories of causation were nonsense, this was his direct experience, and thus was my main takeaway.

Usually, connectors are the main cause of problems with "cables", and it had to be a coax cable, so I found an 11mm (7/16") open-end ignition wrench, and went around loosening and re-tightening all CATV RF connectors (Type F, for the record). The loosen-then-tighten drill is to physically disrupt any corrosion at contact points.

All connections were tight save one, the one where the coax from the modem connects to the RF feed coming from the nearby boiler room. The loose connector is in the wall plate under the table upon which the modem sits, along with my desktop computer, and that connector had managed over the years since 2016 to unscrew itself almost to the point of falling apart. That cable does move a bit when things are added or removed, and so on. Tightened the connector. Bingo!

And now the cause of the oddity became clear. The SNR is measured over time, to yield a stable value. But the connection was chattering between normal power (+5 dBmV) and open (-15 dBmV) fast enough that the SNR calculation didn't notice. This was also too fast for AGC et al to react, so symbols sent during the open period were lost. Some could be recreated by forward error correction, and some could not, and these errors accumulated steadily over time despite the stellar SNR.

The modulation type is QAM256, and the symbol rate on each QAM256 channel is 5120 Ksymbols per second. There are 16 downlink and 4 uplink channels. The AM component of the QAM symbols will have a fundamental at 5 MHz or so, far above the spectrum due to a rattling connector.

.

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A spectrum analyzer would not have found this problem either. I suppose if one envelope demodulated the received RF, the chattering would have been quite obvious - big AM noise peak in the 10 to 1000 Hz range, or the like. I would think that it would be useful for the modem to do this - loose connectors are pretty common I'd hazard.

Anyway, it all works now, the key symptom being that there are no new errors accumulating now.

And the takeaway is that if SNR exceeds 30 dB and yet errors accumulate, start re-tightening RF connectors. If that doesn't work, look for a cracked wire or connector, or a loose shield.

Joe

Reply to
Joe Gwinn
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I guess that the internet over the cable line could be effected and not the TV signals.

Many years ago I had problems on 3 or 4 out of many of the TV signals on the cable. The repair man came out and started replacing the connectors outside the house and on the pole. I though he was waisting his time,but when he finished all the chanels worked.

Reply to
Ralph Mowery

Which model Comcast modem/gateway?

Have you seen this?

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The usual failure mode is decreasing speeds, high error rate, and hangs, which can be temporarily fixed by power cycling the modem/gateway.

Like all crowd sourced lists, the above defective modem list seems (to me) to be problematic. For example, I've had no problems with Arris SB6183 modems, which I assume are v1 version. For example, the list shows SB6183v2 as defective, but I've never seen a v2 modem.

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There are other lists on the web. I suggest you compare entries before assuming a particular modem is bad. Incidentally, I've seen a high failure rate with the Arris supplied 12VDC 1.5/2.0A power supplies after about 3 years. Bulging caps from overheating is the usual culprit. I suggest you buy a spare.

As for juggling the levels, I've found that the data sheet -15dBmV to

+15dBmV input range to be questionable. I uses a 75ohm switchable attenuator to determine the optimum signal level for the modem. In most cases, optimum is no external attenuator. I usually see high levels in buildings with distribution amplifiers. I can usually find an acceptable attenuator value by watching the SNR and upstream power levels.
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The catch is that the optimum level can vary over time if the unused ports on distribution amplifier. If adjusting the input level doesn't help, I look for junk inside cable, bad crimps, junk connectors. If that doesn't work, I drag out the test equipment and look for tilt, ingress and other signal anomalies.

As for connectors, I've seen a few broken F connectors. The problem is that such devices are not designed to survive a crash to the floor. If the modem lands on the stiff RG-6a/u cable or F connector, it will break the solder connection(s) to the PCB. I can usually solder those back together of the modem is out of warranty. For a time, I was constantly getting replacement modems from Comcast with broken connectors. It seems their "refurbishing" operation doesn't check for broken F connectors and puts the "tested" modems back in stock.

Congrats on solving your problem and good luck.

Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

I'll go tighten them all now!

A lot of people complain about Comcast, but it's been excellent here. The install/service folks have been great. They keep upping my speed for free, probably to compete with Sonic (fiber) and MonkeyBrains (short-hop microwave links).

We do have to reboot the modem now and then, once a month maybe, when it quits working.

Their cable TV boxes hang up occasionally too. The wall plug has to be pulled to do a real reboot, and then they reload their code for a while.

We have Suddenlink at the cabin, the only choice, and they're not so good.

Reply to
jlarkin

On a sunny day (Sat, 14 Aug 2021 11:55:38 -0400) it happened Joe Gwinn snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net wrote in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

I am in the Netheelands, Europe, and had cable plus internet from Ziggo One day Ziggo merged with Vodafone and from that day on _everything_ had problems.

So I canceled the cable and are now using KPN 4G, modem is a simple USB stick you can put in the PC or laptop (sits in an old raspberry here that now works as router). Uses a fraction of the power the cable modem did, I pay less and have over 900 TV channels via my movable satellite dish. And I can take the laptop with the 4G USB modem stick anywhere and have fast internet. When disaster strikes all that wired stuff will be dead. Man from Ziggo a the door some month ago tried to sell me fiber... I pointed out the sat dish and asked how many TV channels he had, I have fee choice there, political, I can even see Cuba TV via satellite :-) Or Russia, almost anything.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

"The consequences of coaxial connector problems"

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Note that this is from Belden, who blames the F connector and would never suggest that the coax cable might also be a problem.

Try this experiment... Unscrew the F connector nut on your modem about 3/4th of the way out. Nice and loose. Watch the numbers on the modem status page. This works for most Comcast modems: <http://192.168.100.1/RgConnect.asp>I'm watching a random YouTube video at 720p. No loss of bandwidth, no intermittents, no loss of carrier, no stops, and no hangs. SNR and upstream power are unchanged. I wiggled the cable/connector around trying to make it fail for about 5 mins. No change. In my never humble opinion a loose connect isn't going to cause a problem.

For fun, I monitored the modem status page, and unplugged the coax cable from my modem. Modem power was left on at all times. I kept hitting the browser refresh button waiting for the modem status page to change. That took about 100 seconds. After plugging the coax cable back into the modem, it took about 200 seconds for my modem and the Xfinity CMTS to shake hands and agree to reconnect. In other words, a carrier loss of less than 100 seconds might not be noticed. I should try this again while streaming or running a benchmark program, but I'm short on time today.

In some cases, where the complaint was allegedly a "loose connector", it turned out to be a corroded center wire, or insufficient exposed center wire from the F connector. The connector may have been loose, but what caused the failure was the center wire being retracted from the F receptacle. The standard field test is to put your finger over the male F connector. If you feel the center wire, it's ok. If it drill a hole in your finger, or you can't feel the center wire, it's time for a new connector.

You might want to revisit the connector you tightened and see if you have a center pin problem. My guess(tm) is that there's something else wrong besides a loose F connector.

Some of my CATV tools:

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Favorite F compression connector (Belden SNS1P6U red):
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I can also rant endlessly about crappy coax, crimpers, strippers, connectors, and tools, but I'm short on time today.

Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

FTA (Free to Air)?

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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

SB6183, bought in 2016. Don't think it's v2 at all. No mention of Intel.

Yes, but my SB6183 has no Intel markings. Nor was I having gradual degradation.

ARRIS may have pulled it, and had some very frank discussions with Intel.

While COMCAST first concluded that the modem was likely bad, mainly due to age, I did not come to that conclusion, instead calling ARRIS.

Yeah. They are supposed to put 75-ohm terminators on unused ports, but few do I'd guess. But we can add those terminators.

The -15 dBmV to +15 dBmV range is straight from the DOCSIS 3.0 spec, as are the allowed SNR ranges. I assume that this is the AGC range.

Yeah. This had to have been costing them money.

Thanks. So far so good. Error counts have not budged in three days.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joe Gwinn

Actually, I'd like to have your take on 1) good F-connector crimpers and 2) why you like your favorite F connector? I need to do some work with coax In my house, and I don't want to have problems with the connectors. TIA J

Reply to
Three Jeeps

One could also use an analog band-pass filter followed by an amplified rectifier to envelope-detect the signal, and look for signal power between 10 Hz and 1 KHz. The modulation will be essentially 100%, so it should be easy.

Also log into the cable modem and check its status. For the ARRIS modems, enter <http://192.168.100.1>. This may be standard. Some modems will require you to enter admin credentials.

We have that here as well, likely due to competition from Verizon's Fios (fiber optic) TV-plus-Internet-VOIP offering.

I dad not had to do that until now. We'll see if I have to do it any more now that the connectors are tight.

Same here.

Not here, although there are a number of also-rans, like RCN, around here (Boston area). Things will thin out away from the Boston metro area.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joe Gwinn

In my case, the longer-term root cause was that cable was not snubbed to anything solid on the end going into the wall, and so the cable was able to work the connector back and forth over the years.

The specific setup is that the wall plate has a F-connector female (outside thread, female center-pin socket) mounted perpendicular to the wall, so the cable would stick out a foot, so I added a well-made metal 90-degree adapter, so the wire is parallel to the wall at the wall plate. It's this adapter assembly that loosened. If the wire was snubbed to the wall, probably no loosening.

Joe Gwinn

Reply to
Joe Gwinn

The loose wall connector was far enough out that a short center pin would allow the circuit to open.

I have the one on the right.

I have more tools for attaching modular connectors for phones and Ethernet.

These are expensive if any good.

I generally buy catv coax jumpers, versus making my own. I have exactly one customer to support.

Reply to
Joe Gwinn

Ditto. Plus some special tools for cutting the outer insulation (without damaging the braid) and the inner insulator (without knicking the center conductor).

I've a nice one for stripping the jacket, cutting/trimming the individual pairs to length and then crimping. My biggest complaint is related to not using it enough to instinctively

*know* which side to insert the cable to trim to length, which side to insert the connector body, etc.

I would like to be able to buy (custom) "solid" coax jumper/cable assemblies instead of having to rely on luck to hold a cable in a particular form.

E.g., out of wall plate, bend to parallel/hug wall, 90 degree up turn, 90 degree right turn, mate to DTV tuner connector.

Reply to
Don Y

Sure. However, please realize that my selection of connectors, coax, tools and methods are dictated by commercial installations and repairs, and don't fit well for home users requirements. My tools need to last for hundreds of crimps, cuts, strips, and pushes while your requirements are a few crimps per year. I'll try to keep it reasonable for a home user.

Tools:

- 7/16" open end wrench to tighten the male connector.

- 1/2" open end wrench for the matching nut (usually on wall plates). I use the wrenches more for loosening connectors than installing them. If you want to get fancy, there are specialized F connector wrenches.

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If you don't have a good feel for how tight to install the connector, get one of the torque wrench tools.

- Coax cable rotary hand stripper. Something like one of these:

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They all work well, as long as the blade is sharp. It can't be re-sharpened so buy a spare blade.

You probably can't justify the expense of a cable prep tool:

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The official Snap-n-Steal tool is the IT1000:

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It's expensive (about $90) and goes through blades rather rapidly. However, it combines a rotary stripper and a compression tool into one tool, which is very handy. This is what I like to use. More on compression tools later.
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- SNS1P6U (T&B or Belden ProSNS) connectors.

This is where the problems begin. I do more rework then new installs. Therefore, I need a connector that will fit most types of RG6/u cables that I encounter. Yes, there are many types of cables and cable qualities. There are also many types of male F connectors with varying lengths which will NOT fit every possible type of compression tool. So, I pick a connector that covers most cable types, which turns out to be the SNS1P6U.

Unfortunately, there's a bit of a muddle with this connector. T&B (Thomas and Betts) invented the connector. Belden bought T&B in 2010, and continued to sell the T&B connectors for a while. Belden then conglomerated their F-Conn connectors with T&T Snap-n-Steal and renamed it ProSNS and renumbering the connector as FSNS6U. I really don't know if the new and improved connector is any better than the previous version(s). I have about 200 older T&B connectors in stock, which at my current usage level is a lifetime supply.

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In terms of quality, both the old an new connectors are mostly brass, UV proof plastic, EPR/EPM rubber (ethylene propylene) o-rings that don't harden or crumble and nickel-tin (or tin) plated. I do have some aluminum F-connectors, which last about 5 years outdoors and then RIP (rust-in-place).

Also important is pull strength. 30 lbs minimum for indoor. 40 lbs minimum for outdoor. Try pulling on a connector pair with a luggage scale:

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Many do-it-thyself cables will fall apart. I made my own crude tester. I can usually go to 80 lbs before things start to fall apart. See ANSI/SCTE 99 and 124 for applicable standards and fixtures:
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- Matching compression tool (it's not really a crimper).

One of the reasons that I have so many DIFFERENT compression tools is that many of the connectors I need to crimp are different diameters and lengths. Some manufacturers design their connectors so that only the compression tool they are selling works with their connectors. So much for standards. I thought I had solved the problem with this compression tool:

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Sheesh...$51. It was $17 when I bought two perhaps 15+ years ago. The big advantages are that the connector length is screw adjustable and it comes with ends to fit F connector, RCA plug, and BNC. That was fine for a few years, until some vendor released a connector that was too long to fit in this tool. It's clumsy to use, doesn't support the cable properly, and sometimes (when I'm not paying attention) produces lop-sided connections. Not quite recommended, but since I have it, I use it.

I previously mentioned that I use an IT1000 tool. It fits the SNS1P6U connectors most of the shorter connectors. It doesn't work with longer connectors. It's also expensive. It's the black thing on the left:

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So, what else is available? Please, ignore the hex crimper on the right. It's made for converting cylindrical connectors into hex connectors. It can survive about 10 lbs of pull before everything falls apart. Not recommended.

The little compression tool in the middle fits most connectors, but has so little leverage that I get tired after a few crimps. No recommended unless you do finger strength exercises.

The gray and blue compression tools are some of those I previously mentioned that were designed to fit exactly one manufacturers connectors. Avoid, unless the seller includes the connectors at a good price.

Having eliminated everything I own, I can't offer a recommendation for a compression tool. Looking at what's available on eBay:

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Looks ok but is only for F connectors. It's difficult to tell, but it looks like it might fit the longer connectors.
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Better and does F, BNC, and phono. Again, not sure about long connectors.

Drivel:

  1. Junk (Radio Shack) RG-6/u. Maybe 30% outer shield coverage:
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  2. Don't use RG59/u. It's all made for low frequency use as in security video cameras. It doesn't work at UHF frequencies.

  1. You might consider buying a proper cable cutter:
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  1. Lots of videos on how to attach compression connectors on YouTube:
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Good luck.

Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

For someone that just wants to do a few connectons around the house you can get a coax stripper, compression tool, and 20 connectors for about $ 15.70 all in one place.

I bought one a while back. Have only used about 5 connectors and it was ok. Would not get if I wanted to do more than the 20 connectors that come with it.

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Reply to
Ralph Mowery

On a sunny day (Sat, 14 Aug 2021 13:17:53 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com wrote in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Yes counting FTA TV stations only, small 25 Euro or so DVBS-2 box from ebay / China finds them scanning, had to remove some sats as its memory was full. I you want a sat, transponder frequency and PIDs: just search for program name or satellite name. or click on the satellite icons on the top to see what is there:

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I have a sat card in a PC too, and also software (not mine) to decode DVB-S2 (as for QO100 ham TV at low bitrate). SSB via QO100 I did too. Is amazing, in contrast to all the noise and fading on shortwave a totally clear signal from .. S Africa, Russia, Midlle East .. Japan, where not... Not US, but maybe one day they will have some transponder on some sat too. You can listen here via Goonhilly ground station in the UK online to what is going on:
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The wide band transponder spedtrum, TV:
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Yes!!!

Maybe from Europe there is more to see.

My dish positioner program seems to be used in many places:

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code:
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I even have voice control on the old PC: 'show BBC' calls the 'show' script that calls xdipo.

All Linux code of course...

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

:

I have one something like that (it's blue and it has different sized aperatures but otherwise same over-all) used with the ribbed crimp F connectors it produces very strong connections, (tested to over 40Kg force)

Reply to
Jasen Betts

snipped-for-privacy@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Get a sat link there. ViaSat is a choice.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Jeff Liebermann snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Spectrum is using F type connectors the do not require a crimp. They are really nice in the RG-6 stuff. Their RG-6 wire is top quality as well from what I saw. I forgot to do my usual "hey can I get about a

15 foot length of that from you?" to the installer guy. Dang! This thread reminded me of that.
Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

I eventually connected with a good Suddenlink guy (obviously in India) and got a new modem, and he upgraded our service somehow for free. The bandwidth is basically free for the cable companies, so if you're annoyed/annoying enough they upgrade to make you happy. It's OK now, and when it goes out now and then we can take a walk.

I'm waiting for 5G to replace everything.

A dish could be tricky in a place that's surrounded by trees and gets

40 feet of snow in a good year. In the summer, we hear the train making a faint whistle off in the distance, but in the winter we don't.

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Reply to
jlarkin

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