But not zero-slope midband... and the low-slope range is small. I really don't see the value of the exercise.
Me insecure? Obviously not. You do piss me off with your vile crap, so I'm going to retaliate by pissing ON you >:-}
You're not getting zero slope. Didn't you read anything Phil Hobbs had to say? ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
You would like to start a dispute between me and Phil, because you are a nasty old git. Ain't gonna happen.
-- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Nope. Not trying to start anything. Just trying to educate you. But you clearly didn't read what Phil said and/or you're as dense as a stump.
Instead of the "Ernst Guillemin" routine, please show us your final values for your 40kHz implementation... so I can run a square wave thru it >:-}
Don't reply with a retort that I should be able to do it myself. Of course I can, but anything I derive will be labeled by you as "not what you meant".
So show us your grandiose solution already >:-}
But everyone knows you won't... you'll have one of your usual scatological-brained excuses. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
For the "progressives" in the crowd, "scatological-brained" is fancy talk meaning "shit-for-brains" >:-} ...Jim Thompson
-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at
-- Like you could?
Larkin has tried... multiple times, but was caught every time >:-} ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
-- I like your clever circuit - it's pretty slick - and I'd like to play with it, so can you say what the deviation from the source will be and what phase error you can stand, please?
[snip]
Larkin didn't even show that. He produced a small non-zero slope over an extraordinarily small region. And didn't even have the engineering curiosity to see what his "creation" would do under square wave excitation. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Not so. John's LTspice file, the one that showed me that I'd been making an ass of myself once again, has a huge negative group delay if (as he suggested) you play with the value of one of the resistors. Try it.
Group delay =/= time delay, in general.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
-- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA +1 845 480 2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Make it easy for me. WHICH resistor and what value? ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
On 8/10/2013 7:37 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Try this one--it's John's exact file except with a parameterized R7. The group delay does some interesting things.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Version 4 SHEET 1 1392 680 WIRE 512 -64 336 -64 WIRE 688 -64 592 -64 WIRE 784 -64 688 -64 WIRE 848 -64 784 -64 WIRE 992 -64 848 -64 WIRE 1136 -64 992 -64 WIRE 1296 -64 1216 -64 WIRE 1344 -64 1296 -64 WIRE 1376 -64 1344 -64 WIRE 688 -16 688 -64 WIRE 784 -16 784 -64 WIRE 992 32 992 -64 WIRE 688 96 688 48 WIRE 784 96 784 64 WIRE 336 192 336 -64 WIRE 496 192 336 192 WIRE 704 192 576 192 WIRE 784 192 704 192 WIRE 848 192 784 192 WIRE 992 192 992 112 WIRE 992 192 848 192 WIRE 1136 192 992 192 WIRE 1296 192 1296 -64 WIRE 1296 192 1216 192 WIRE 704 224 704 192 WIRE 784 224 784 192 WIRE 336 272 336 192 WIRE 704 352 704 288 WIRE 784 352 784 304 WIRE 336 400 336 352 FLAG 336 400 0 FLAG 688 96 0 FLAG 784 96 0 FLAG 704 352 0 FLAG 784 352 0 FLAG 1344 -64 SUM FLAG 848 -64 A FLAG 848 192 B SYMBOL voltage 336 256 R0 WINDOW 0 75 34 Left 2 WINDOW 3 56 73 Left 2 WINDOW 123 62 105 Left 2 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value SINE() SYMATTR Value2 AC 1 SYMBOL res 608 -80 R90 WINDOW 0 71 61 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 82 60 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 1K SYMBOL res 592 176 R90 WINDOW 0 79 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 95 58 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R4 SYMATTR Value 1K SYMBOL ind 768 -32 R0 WINDOW 0 60 48 Left 2 WINDOW 3 65 81 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName L1 SYMATTR Value 1 SYMBOL ind 768 208 R0 WINDOW 0 61 36 Left 2 WINDOW 3 59 73 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName L2 SYMATTR Value 1.1 SYMBOL cap 672 -16 R0 WINDOW 0 -53 31 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -45 68 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 1 SYMBOL cap 688 224 R0 WINDOW 0 -60 20 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -53 55 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value 1 SYMBOL res 1232 -80 R90 WINDOW 0 67 62 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 77 60 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R5 SYMATTR Value 100K SYMBOL res 1232 176 R90 WINDOW 0 -57 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 -49 57 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R6 SYMATTR Value 100K SYMBOL res 976 16 R0 WINDOW 0 58 40 Left 2 WINDOW 3 60 73 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R7 SYMATTR Value {RL} TEXT 944 272 Left 2 !.ac lin 1000 0.13 0.18 TEXT 904 312 Left 2 ;BP Filter with funny phase shift TEXT 928 352 Left 2 ;J Larkin Aug 7, 2013 TEXT 944 232 Left 2 !.step param RL 20 200 20
-- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA +1 845 480 2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
The customer will give us 40 KHz from a system that has a good XO, so figure it will be within 100 PPM maybe.
Somebody asked, but it's just one application. The concept of the filter is what's interesting. It's easy to scale in frequency and bandwidth, and it can be done with active or passive filter circuits.
All of my resonators are low Q, so are easy to replicate with real parts. Use your imagination. Take what I started and go with it, if you're really interested in the problem. If you're not actually interested (and you likely aren't) you and Jim are just doing your usual content-free clucking.
People said it was impossible, so I did it. Some people claim it's still non-causal, hence impossible.
-- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
How do you display or measure group delay in Spice?
-- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
You don't even need to do that. On PSpice it has negative slope from
158.597mHz to 158.910mHz (a whopping 0.2% of Fc)... but I don't know what that buys you??Try running LTspice with its "alternate solver"... that's a real Spice solver with no speed-up funny business. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
If you want better stopband attenuation, you can add another resonator.
This thing becomes sort of a phase equalizer for a conventional bandpass filter.
Version 4 SHEET 1 1768 680 WIRE 512 -64 336 -64 WIRE 688 -64 592 -64 WIRE 784 -64 688 -64 WIRE 848 -64 784 -64 WIRE 944 -64 848 -64 WIRE 1104 -64 1024 -64 WIRE 1152 -64 1104 -64 WIRE 1184 -64 1152 -64 WIRE 688 -16 688 -64 WIRE 784 -16 784 -64 WIRE 1392 0 1264 0 WIRE 1568 0 1472 0 WIRE 1664 0 1568 0 WIRE 1728 0 1664 0 WIRE 1264 32 1264 0 WIRE 1104 48 1104 -64 WIRE 1216 48 1104 48 WIRE 1568 48 1568 0 WIRE 1664 48 1664 0 WIRE 688 96 688 48 WIRE 784 96 784 64 WIRE 1216 96 1200 96 WIRE 1200 160 1200 96 WIRE 1264 160 1264 112 WIRE 1568 160 1568 112 WIRE 1664 160 1664 128 WIRE 336 192 336 -64 WIRE 496 192 336 192 WIRE 704 192 576 192 WIRE 784 192 704 192 WIRE 848 192 784 192 WIRE 944 192 848 192 WIRE 1104 192 1104 48 WIRE 1104 192 1024 192 WIRE 704 224 704 192 WIRE 784 224 784 192 WIRE 336 272 336 192 WIRE 704 352 704 288 WIRE 784 352 784 304 WIRE 336 400 336 352 FLAG 336 400 0 FLAG 688 96 0 FLAG 784 96 0 FLAG 704 352 0 FLAG 784 352 0 FLAG 1152 -64 SUM FLAG 848 -64 A FLAG 848 192 B FLAG 1568 160 0 FLAG 1664 160 0 FLAG 1728 0 Y FLAG 1264 160 0 FLAG 1200 160 0 SYMBOL voltage 336 256 R0 WINDOW 0 75 34 Left 2 WINDOW 3 56 73 Left 2 WINDOW 123 62 105 Left 2 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value SINE() SYMATTR Value2 AC 1 SYMBOL res 608 -80 R90 WINDOW 0 71 61 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 82 60 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 53.5 SYMBOL res 592 176 R90 WINDOW 0 79 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 95 58 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R4 SYMATTR Value 53.5 SYMBOL ind 768 -32 R0 WINDOW 0 60 48 Left 2 WINDOW 3 65 81 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName L1 SYMATTR Value 0.98 SYMBOL ind 768 208 R0 WINDOW 0 61 36 Left 2 WINDOW 3 59 73 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName L2 SYMATTR Value 1.02 SYMBOL cap 672 -16 R0 WINDOW 0 -53 31 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -45 68 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 0.98 SYMBOL cap 688 224 R0 WINDOW 0 -63 22 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -70 59 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value 1.02 SYMBOL res 1040 -80 R90 WINDOW 0 67 62 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 77 60 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R5 SYMATTR Value 100K SYMBOL res 1040 176 R90 WINDOW 0 -57 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 -49 57 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R6 SYMATTR Value 100K SYMBOL e 1264 16 R0 SYMATTR InstName E1 SYMATTR Value 1 SYMBOL res 1488 -16 R90 WINDOW 0 71 61 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 82 60 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 30 SYMBOL ind 1648 32 R0 WINDOW 0 60 48 Left 2 WINDOW 3 65 81 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName L3 SYMATTR Value 1 SYMBOL cap 1552 48 R0 WINDOW 0 -53 31 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -45 68 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C3 SYMATTR Value 1 TEXT 1000 256 Left 2 !.ac lin 10000 0.13 0.18 TEXT 944 304 Left 2 ;BP Filter with low phase shift 6 TEXT 992 352 Left 2 ;J Larkin Aug 10, 2013
-- John Larkin Highland Technology Inc www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com Precision electronic instrumentation Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators Custom timing and laser controllers Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Left click on the phase axis, choose "group delay" in the dialogue box.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
-- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA +1 845 480 2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
It shows that it's possible to make the phase independent of frequency over some sufficiently small interval, and in fact to make a negative group delay. The negative group delay is be pretty big, too, like -25 cycles of the centre frequency (-152 seconds at 155.4 mHz with R7=200 ohms.
There are lots and lots of ways to solve systems of nonlinear ODEs, many of which are much better than anything available in the 1970s. I don't know a lot about the guts of LTspice, but it works pretty well, and the bang for the buck is unbeatable. I use both solvers reasonably routinely, though I'm really not a Spice power user.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
-- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA +1 845 480 2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
The "alternate solver" avoids any of the short cuts that are fine for switchers, but of dubious accuracy for fine detail Analog. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
See...
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 20:45:56 -0500 From: Jim Thompson Newsgroups: alt.binaries.schematics.electronic Subject: bandpass filter (S.E.D) - LarkinPhaseShift3_Q=250_RHO=1p004.pdf Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 18:45:56 -0700 Message-ID:
No laws of causality have been broken, it's simple interference, see attachment. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Of course they haven't, but the term "group delay", and the resulting confusion with real delay, has sucked many folks--including you and me--into assuming that negative group delay wasn't possible.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
-- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA +1 845 480 2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.