Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?

"John Doe"

** Obvious.

The things retain charge for much longer so need less regular attention from owners and are suitable for use with occasionally used items.

** Cos you can use them straight away - fool.

** Wot complete insanity is this ?

** A torch or a camera may sit idle for long periods, you do not know WHEN you are going to need them next - so a rechargeable cell that has a long charge retention time is a real plus over one that does not.

Fact is, the short and variable self discharge periods of NiCd ( and some MiMH ) cells is their biggest drawback - resulting in the early demise of the vast majority of NiCd packs from accidental overcharging the cells that had longer retention than the others.

...... Phil

For cameras, people may use them only every couple of months for most of the year, then use it a lot during a couple of weeks, but alkalines perform especially poorly in cameras due to their high internal resistance.

Yes, for flashlights, alkalines are often fine. But now a lot of people use LED flashlights as bicycle lights for commuting, needing to charge then often.

Low leakage NiMH batteries are pretty cheap now, on sale they're around $1.50, so they're only about 2x the price of name brand AA alkalines at Costco. \\

I really like these so-called hybrid NiMH batteries. I use the Hybrio brand.

Certainly for cameras, the alkalines are terrible due to the high current demands. It's nice being able to grab a camera that I haven't used for months and have it work. I could never do that with conventional NiMH batteries. I'm even using them in my flashlights now that I know they won't be dead after sitting for a long time.

Bob

Suspicious self serving post.

I think you've just sandbagged the discussion, by asserting (as a given) that one specific measure of the "worth" of a battery is *the* worth.

It isn't. That's only your own personal judgement.

I think you would get a more useful set of answers if you were to phrase your question in a more open-minded way, as in

"What do you, the user of a low-leakage NiMH battery, see as its advantages and disadvantages compared with other battery types?"

[1] The high current delivery capability is valuable in the applications in question. One primary application, for me, is ham radio... specifically, emergency communications service. Although I *can* run my HTs on alkaline batteries (and I keep a brick of 'em around as a backup), pulling over an amp out of 'em during transmission will kill them pretty quickly. I get more run-hours per battery-pack-full with NiMH than I do with alkalines. Same is true for digital camera applications. [2] The fact that these applications are "high current" does not imply "use 'em every day or two". I may pull out my ham-radio go kit for an actual event (or for drill) only every couple of months. When I do, I want the radio batteries to be available *right* *away*... the start of an emergency is exactly the wrong time to have to worry about recharging (or changing out) weak batteries. Ditto for my wife's point&shoot digital cameras. She sometimes doesn't use them for days or weeks at a time... but if she does, and the batteries go dead, I hear about it (especially if she misses an important shot!). [3] Alkalines have an annoying tendency to leak, especially if partially discharged and then left sitting in the equipment for some months. Although the leakage isn't horribly corrosive, it's messy and annoying. In order to avoid this, I've found it desirable to change out alkalines before putting equipment into storage, even if only a small fraction of the charge has been used... this strikes me as wasteful. I have not noticed any similar tendency of nickel-based rechargeables to leak. [4] Cost savings. If a low-discharge NiMH pays for itself after, say, 8 alkaline AA's not purchased, then every further alkaline not purchased/used/discarded is money in my pocket. Why should I think it "negates" the value of being able to recharge the battery (and save money) hundreds of times, if it takes years to accomplish this at my current rate of use rather than months? It's still money saved, and waste not generated! So, by comparison with other battery types: [A] I could use alkalines. I wouldn't get as much run time per set, I'd have to carry more with me, I'd have to wait longer between photos (or use my radio at a lower transmitter power output level), I'd have to be more concerned about leaks during storage. In the short term I'd pay less money (no charger to buy), but in the long term it'd be more expensive. [B] I could use very-high-capacity, higher-discharge NiMH batteries. They'd be good for "charge and use within a few days" applications... but beyond that horizon they might actually retain less useful charge than the lower-rated-capacity low- self-discharge type. [C] I could use NiCd batteries. Substantially lower capacity, hence less run time per set, and their self-discharge rate might not be any lower than the best low-discharge NiMH these days. [D] I could use lithium AA primary cells. Excellent current delivery, low internal resistance, high capacity, light... but they are *not* inexpensive. The cost is about the same as low-self- discharge NiMH, but they're single-use-only. I buy these for my wife's cameras when we go on vacation (she prefers to travel with as little and as light baggage as possible) where the convenience is worth the high cost.

Do you insult people in person like you insult people over the Internet, Phil? Were you an orphan? Don't know about the average Australian, but seems there are a few too many like Phil (another Australian foul mouth apparently with no self control is Rod Speed in the storage group). I'm genuinely curious. Maybe they come from some small backwards tribal region, like where their customs are the reverse of normal people.

"Phil Allis> Path:

flpi142.ffdc.sbc.com!flph199.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy.com!flph200.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy.net!newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!feeder.erje.net!news2.arglkargh.de!news.karotte.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail

That's just *one* sense of worth, there are others.

Obviously, they hold their charge longer than ordinary NiMH's. That's a good and useful thing for many people and many purposes.

There comes a point where if you use the item so infrequently, that can indeed be the case. But there are countless usage variations you are not considering.

Pretty much, yes. Unless you are using an item say better than once a week, you will be losing a significant amount of charge, and that can be really annoying.

Dave.

e.

I use ENELOOPs, but a Costco AA cell costs about 25 cents. So actually I use both, but try to use the ENELOOPS as much as possible.

Now granted, I used the price of the house brand, but the capacity of alkaline batteries don't vary much between brands the last time I saw a capacity test done. I've even used Korean made batteries at the dollar store in a pinch. About the only cell brand I find that is not competitive in capacity is Ultralast. Now granted, I've got those batteries for under a dime at times.

"John Doe"

( snip load of top posted, puerile drivel)

** Anyone as colossally stupid as YOU pal, needs to develop a thicker hide.

Piss off - fool.

..... Phil

It's bloody inconvenient to have your clock or keyboard run down after

3 monts because of internal leakage in the battery.

Appears to be a same dialect. Okay, so I see Phil is obsessed with Sylvia in the Australian legal group. So maybe Phil and Rod are the same, or brothers, or maybe bedfellows.

Do you have a Crocodile Dundee complex, Phil?

Are you in a movie, Phil?

flpi141.ffdc.sbc.com!flph199.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy.com!flph200.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!feeder.erje.net!news.musoftware.de!wum.musoftware.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail

"John Dope"

( snip another whole load of top posted, puerile drivel )

** Anyone as monumentally stupid as YOU pal, needs to develop a very thick hide.

To go with that very think head of yours.

Piss the hell off - you PITA trolling f****it.

You should tale pity on Phil.

His sheepfriend just chucked him!

flpi141.ffdc.sbc.com!flph199.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy.com!flph200.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!feeder.erje.net!news.musoftware.de!wum.musoftware.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail

Leave it to SMS, the so-called battery "expert" to inflate prices of the AA batteries that he loathes, when he somehow always can find much lower Li-Ion prices than the rest of us can. Name brand AA alkalines, such as those from Sanyo, Panasonic, RayOVac, Maxell and others can often be found in larger camera & electronic stores, supermarkets and Rite-Aid type stores for prices ranging from 20 to

25 cents each, not the 75 cents claimed by the "expert". Some of these stores have permanently low battery prices. With others you wait for sales (Pathmark == frequent, Rite-Aid == infrequent). If you don't plan ahead and only buy 2AA or 4AA blister packed alkalines as needed, then yes, you pay higher battery prices.

Low self-discharge NiMH cells such as Hybrios, Hybrids, Eneloops, etc. are excellent and the best types for many purposes, but not for all. You can't make that generic statement, that alkalines are terrible for use in cameras because there's a tremendous difference in the power demands of different cameras. The worst possible case is when shots are taken with the flash and the LCD is used. As you suspect, some cameras do very poorly when powered by alkalines, but many (in cameras from Canon, Fuji, Nikon, etc.) can provide hundreds of shots from a set of alkalines even when the flash is used, up to and beyond 1,500 shots when the flash is not used.

Bogus battery information can also color your expectations. One example is Canon's A570IS camera. Canon's manual states that it should be able to get 120 shots (CIPA test, using flash and LCD) and

400 shots (no flash and using viewfinder) from a pair of AA alkaline cells. I tested that camera and got even more shots than Canon claimed. SMS on the other hand frequently stated in this newsgroup that the A570IS did worse than this by an order of magnitude. Even today his battery data website claims :

Whether bogus information or a blatant lie, the responses weren't similar and unanimous. IIRC, he also stated that she then purchased new alkalines and got the same terrible battery life. This couldn't happen unless that particular camera was defective, and it's very unlikely that it was, since he said he'd check the camera when it was returned, but he never reported any findings. And despite the above quote, which if true would indicate an unacceptable camera with possibly the worst battery performance ever, SMS has since recommended the A570IS in this newsgroup many times.

As you say, the hybrid type NiMH batteries are good choices for flashlights, but with two caveats. The first is that if the flashlight user waits for the light to dim before recharging the batteries, there's a chance that one or more cells might become reverse-cell damaged. The more cells that are used, the greater the possibility. Two cell flashlights should be safe, unless they're the more expensive types using voltage regulators. Flashlights using four or more cells provide the greatest risk. The second is that for emergency use, alkalines provide a good warning that the batteries need to be replaced because of their slow, gradual voltage decline. When NiMH batteries become depleted, the light falloff can be extremely rapid, giving you little time to find a set of replacement batteries. For most people using flashlights around the home or auto though, this shouldn't be a significant concern.

There are cheap Chinese knock-off batteries that go to great lengths to look a lot like Duracells or Energizers. At a quick glance, they look the same. However, even new, they can't even get a camera to turn on. Internal resistance is that high. Probably bottom of the barrel carbon/zinc batteries masquerading as alkalines.

FWIW, I'll never waste my money on NiMH's again. I bought a "smart" charger that came with 4 NiMH's once, and was kind of impressed. Unfortunately, my camera (a Fuji) has a terrible current drain when it's off, presumably to keep the RTC up. So, I'd pick up the cam, turn it on, and the NiMHs were dead. So, I'd get the next pair off its shelf, slap the discharged pair in the charger, and be on my merry way. Then, freshly charged, bu thaving sat for a couple of weeks, they were dead. Finally one day, I had no charged NiMHs - I "charged" 4 of them, and NONE OF THEM would make the camera go.

I mean, pulled them right out of the charger, put them in the camera, and nothing, like their shelf life was zero.

So I trashed the whole lot, bought a couple of AA alkalines, and they're still going after almost a year.

BTW, I've never heard of alkalines having a "high internal resistance" - IME, they're almost as hot as Nicads.

Good Luck! Rich

I gather a lot of the D cells have AA's inside.

Most people seem to be aware of alkalines having a higher internal resistance then either NiMH or NiCD. Since literally millions of people are happily using NiMH in their cameras, it might occur to you that you have a problem with the camera. My guess would be it's unduly sensitive to the lower voltage of NiMH, but one would need to do further testing. Dave Cohen

Sounds to me like you have a crap charger.